To feel sorry for the Australian DJs?

[andapartridgeinaRowantree]

Obviously more sorry for the nurse's family. I wonder how long she was having suicidal thoughts for? I can't think this could have been the only cause,

But these pranks have been going on for such a long time and those DJs could not have predicted such a result and are going to have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

It's such a tragedy and I feel very sad for all concerned.

Second nurse hasn't killed herself yet.

Hospital administrators have a duty to set up proper privacy procedures to protect both staff and patients.

Can I just remind everyone that in 1995 a Canadian DJ Pierre Brassard rang Buckingham Palace pretending to be Jean Chretien the PM of Canada and was put through to the Queen. He had a 15 minute conversation with her.
www.independent.co.uk/news/it-sounds-as-though-the-referendum-may-go-the-wrong-way-1579762.html

So the hospital should have had better procedures but it looks like anyone can be fooled.

Have stayed away but I feel it's appropriate to point out, once again, that's it's inappropriate, distasteful and downright cruel to speculate on Ms Saldanha's mental health.

If you would be embarrassed or ashamed to say such things about her to a friend or member of her family (and if you wouldn't, why not) then have some decency and please keep your ill informed, judgemental opinions to yourself.

"The prank obviously pushed her to it." - You may well be right, Everlong (and everyone else who agrees).

IMO, the DJs were thoughtless d*ckheads, and the radio producers were thoughtless and negligent and immoral, and the hospital managers are thoughtless and negligent and do not seem to manage or support their staff very well...

But the thing is, there may have been a dozen other awful things that happened to Jacintha that day - some related to the malicious phone call, and some not - and any one of those things may have been what tipped her over the edge. We just don't know. For instance (and I am not for a moment suggesting any of these individual things did happen - I am just inventing examples to illustrate the point)...

Maybe she was in trouble at work. So does the hospital share the responsibility for Jacintha's suicide?
Maybe she fell out with the other nurse; maybe they argued about whose fault it was. So does she share the responsibility?
Maybe she hadn't had enough sleep. So does whoever drew up the shift rotas share the responsibility?
Maybe she had had bad news. So does the bearer of that bad news share the responsibility?
Maybe someone in the local corner shop was rude or cruel or randomly racist. So does that person share the responsibility?
Maybe she argued with her husband or had cross words with her children. So do they share the responsibility?

I am pretty sure no-one would want to blame any of these people. For the same reason I can't blame the DJs. I can think stupid, nasty fools, but Jacintha's suicide isn't their fault.

I used to think that ultimately, the only person responsible for a suicide was the person who killed themself - that it is a choice. But I don't believe that any more. Because depression is an illness - and like other serious illnesses, it kills some people and it doesn't kill others. It often isn't possible to unravel all the factors that might have had an influence... Though that doesn't stop the people left behind from trying, because suicide is usually senseless and tragic, and if you loved the person who killed themselves, it hurts to be left without good answers.

My own reason for not wanting to 'scapegoat' the DJs is that as soon as people think they have someone to blame, they stop looking... And really, I think that if we don't accept such a 'neat' solution, then we all keep trying to understand how complex suicide can be... Then if we understand more, perhaps some future suicide can be prevented.

I don't know if that make sense to anyone other than me.

I just want to add my good wishes to Everlong and mindosa and anyone else who has lived through the suicide of someone they love. And thank you for sharing your experiences.

Fab post flow .

Good post Flow.

Well said Flo. Some things are not black and white.

Many things are not black and white Animation.

What you say makes complete sense to me too flow.

In particular, I too don't see suicide as a free choice. It must just bear down on those who succumb to it, as the only way out. Which is appalling.

Lovely post flow. Thank you.

Yes, by the nature of suicide it is very complex.

But managerial shortcomings make some workplaces worse than others for everyone no matter how they are doing emotionally or in terms of mental health. As Sudaname's post illustrates, a blaming culture is alive and kicking in the healthcare sphere and surely anyone can see that permitting such a culture to persist can do no good for either staff morale or patient care. It is the opposite of good management when staff are left to gang up on each other, or where several layers of management can haul someone over the coals or when there are no policies in place to keep nurses from having to deal with the public, whether that means scheduling trained receptionists or having proper privacy policies in place. Good management recognises the value of the human beings it has to work with and seeks to enhance the working environment, not taking anything for granted or hoping things will sort themselves out.

The nurses governing body - (The Nursing Midwifery Council) also play a part in the culture of fear. Nurses can be struck off these days for practically anything less than perfect. It can be very harsh, and that's no exaggeration - these instances are out out there in the public domain - and some misdemeanors are ridiculously trivial.

Indeed flow some very good and thought out points.

While I agree with Flo to some points I also want to re-highlight a comment that was made earlier, possibly om this thread, and I apologise now if I don't credit you.

You can not have a practical joke/ prank without a victim

Even at its most benign, the success of a practical joke/ prank relies on someone being made a fool of.

Someone to laugh AT.

Not with, AT, laugh AT.

So yes the DJs in their little bubble, may not have seen death as a consequences, but they still knew there was going to be at least one victim, after all its a practical joke. .

But what if, what if, no- one had died, but 6 months down the line one or both nurses were in front of the NMC?
Would that have been in the news?
If one or both had lost their registration?
Would that have been in the news?
And then lost their jobs?
Would that have been in the news?

All the above would have still been consequences, but no one / DJs would have known.

To me the biggie is as said above so much better, it was a hospital. . . It was always a fucked up thing to do, it's a hospital. . . You know with sick people?

Even if they'd had a 24 hour receptionist they were still tying up the line preventing those with ill relations getting through. I know when my OH was ill & in hospital on the nights I didn't stay the minute I woke I called the ward.

There are so many what ifs I can do, but to me, prank calling a hospital is ALWAYS going to affect others. Even if its as simple as a patient having to wait 5 minutes longer to be helped to the loo, might mean nothing to a global audience but be very important to that patient.

And to anyone who says they should have realised that the accents were crap, well I'm Irish, and UK colleagues have thought I was USA, scouser, Aussie, and others, and these are native British. Working in a global company. . .

Do you want to be the person ignoring/ refusing the queen?

Excellent post Flo.

As this thread has become some heated can I suggest (as the OP) that it is left with this as a very good final thought? I really don't like how upset this is making some people..

my heart goes out to the family. The nurse must have had it from all ends, she was living in the staff quarters so mAybe it was all too much. Its such a sad story and we can pray for her family and her soul i guess she is free from ridicule and shame she felt maybe.
THe Dj,s are being being supported alot with emotional support which is understandable but its a shame that the poor family of Jacintha were not given much support.
I am a bit concerned if the hospital are letting on everything, surely a hospital will have disciplined or tried to do so , it was such a huge error which they may have felt she was accountable for. R.i.p Jacintha xxx

Very good post Flow, and Smellslikecatspee, I agree wholeheartedly.

I think there is something quite fishy about the whole thing (read articles in Udipitoday. com and the Indian media generally) to see why. According to them, the first the family knew of it was when her husband called the hospital on a Friday evening to inquire why she had not come home. Two British police were dispatched from Delhi and interrogated his family. He has apparently been prohibited from talking to them (his family) or the media since he told them the initial news. He is calling for an investigation and Keith Vaz says there are many unexplained circumstances. I'm not suggesting the Royals are implicated (Charles even joked about it), it could be intelligence agencies who were furious that their protocols were not observed and who came in for a blasting behind the scenes.

That said, whatever the true circumstances of her death, it would not have occurred if those DJ's had not made the call. I do feel somewhat bad for them. Being Australian myself, we do like to take the piss out of plummy accents and the aristocracy, but they and the station surely must have been aware before airing it that someone would get in trouble for it. As soon as it went past the first phonecall, they should have known that it should not have been aired (it was pre-recorded).

Who do I feel most sorry for apart from the griefstricken family? Will and Kate. What should be a joyous time for them and the birth of their first child, has been marred by this horrible event. The child will forever be associated with it.

People make conspiracy theories out of anything. I don't see anything 'fishy' a out it.

Agree with flo and also with smells.

Women don't normally commit suicide by hanging - that in itself is fishy. DW and I had this conversation last night when we read the papers and discovered that this was how she killed herself...

Some of the speculation here is hideous. Unless you are personally involved, you cannot say the hospital has failed to look after these 2 nurses' emotional wellbeings, you cannot say the nurse who died MUST have had MH issues, you cannot imply the Security Services are involved in this case, you cannot say the hospital's protocols were lacking etc etc. It's almost like you're all relishing all this speculation.

no I'm not saying that at all just putting forward my view point. Yes, some women do but it's not a normal route that women take - but nothing about this is normal.

And I'm not relishing what's happened and will now bow out. It is tragic what happened...

There will however always be speculation when a death has some level of the unexplained about it. Look at what happened with Diana's death...