To say we can’t afford to visit DF’s family at Christmas

[Ambivalence]

My DF ( fiancé) is pretty hopeless with money and so I have been nagging him for ages to prepare a list of his incomings/ outgoings so that we can prepare a joint budget. I have also been nagging him to check his finances before committing to things, rather than just spending the money and asking me to bail him out. He is not good at living within his means, which I realise is unlikely to ever change as he is 46!

He has now just texted me with the conclusion that we should not go to Holland for Christmas as it would be cheaper to stay at home ( he doesn?t get paid time off anyway).

I have texted back to say we will discuss it tonight. I feel really mean to agree with him, and let him spend Christmas without his family and friends but it would be a lesson to him about working out what you can afford before making plans ( we just went to Holland a week ago for his birthday ? he booked the wrong flights and so lost 2 days wages as a result, and spent £200 hosting a party in a bar for his friend).

I am a bit annoyed with him about money anyway as he has been in a low paid call centre (£9/ hour) job since he moved to London in the spring ? despite promising to look for something in his field and at a professional salary comparable to the job he left ( her hasn?t put much effort into this), and he is disorganised about giving me money towards the bills ( no rent as I pay the mortgage on my flat) and I have been asking him for months to set up a weekly standing order/ direct debit to me, as he is paid weekly and his budgeting skills are poor.

I feel really mean saying we can?t afford to go to see his family, but in the end I think this might be a lesson learned for him. He never saves anything for a rainy day. I have just had to spend my rainy day fund on some unexpected building work and so don?t have funds to bail him out. Should I agree with him we can?t afford the trip at Christmas or be kind and pay for it?

I suspect you are inadvertently buying his love.

He has not really made any monetary decision. He, like a child, has turned on the waterworks in order to try manipulate OP to fork out. Again.

Mumsnet can't help you change him but we can help you translate his bullshit I think.

"I'm not going to go home for Christmas because I can't afford it" = pay for my flights or I'll ruin Christmas

"I cant afford to contribute, I only earn £9/hour" = I am not willing to get a better job even though I could because you will expect me to split the bills.

"Ok then, I'll pay for the honeymoon" = I have no intention of paying for anything, I'm just agreeing so you will stop pestering, if it comes to it I can find someone else to pay for it.

"I'm really committed to making this work" = because if I lose you my living standards would drop significantly and I'd have to wipe my own arse. I'm not doing a budget though.

At some stage op you will get the classic "you knew what I was like when you married me" cocklodger argument ender...

He's probably thinking you may "reward" his martyrdom over Christmas by paying for him to go anyway since he has "made a responsible decision". You should have no more to do with it than to say "oh right, ok then" and to get on planning your Christmas.

I notice you talk about "we" and so does he. "We should not go to holland this year" the situation is more accurately that you could go to holland with your money if you wanted to and that he, since he doesn't have the money shouldn't even be considering that "we" might go. There is no "we" in your financial relationship, you don't have a partnership, he spunks his money on crap and you pay for the things he needs to live. Him telling you what "we" should do is extremely cheeky isn't it? Why is he assuming he gets to decide or have any input into it when he hasn't got any money for it?

When people tell you what they are, listen to them. He isn't lying, or trying to cover up his true self. What you have in front of you is a man who is never going to change. Listen to what he is telling you. He isn't your DF. You aren't your DM.

Just listen to what he's telling you.

OP you seem to lend a lot of weight to your counsellor saying that you are both committed to making it work.

Have you considered that of course he wants it to work, on his terms? His mother won't be around forever, he has no pension and he needs a mealticket to pay for his retirement. You are his chosen cash cow. Solictor, you own your flat, your parents have some money - what is not to like?

You can't change a person significantly when you marry them, you might be able to get them to modify bits of their behaviour because they have recognised the problem it causes if they don't, but fundementally they will remain the same.

DH is chronically late. He's one of the classic "I've just got time to do 6 1 more task before we leave types". Most of the time I work around it because he comes from a culture and background where strict timekeeping was less of an issue. However, on one occasion we were flying to see his brother and he was so late that we missed our flights. I didn't step in and sort things out, rather I stepped back and told him to sort out new flights, pay the cost out his pocket money not the family budget and square things with his brother - which he did. We've never missed a flight since.

Has your DP ever faced up to the consequences of his behaviour and made any modifications at all?

Like someone said upthread. He lives off women.

Even my DS of 21 doesn't ask me for money! And if he needs to borrow some, he pays me back.

You've had lots of good advice here, I hope it will open your eyes, cos he is never going to want an equal financial partnership. Throwing a strop over it shows you this.

You will be left bitter and resentful. Is that the life you want to live?

Imagine bringing a child into this scenario! What lessons will they be learning from it? More repeat of the same.....

I have had some really good advice on here, thank you.

After his strop last night, he wanted to come back into the bed at 5 this morning ( we are having building works, so actually he had been sleeping on the floor as the builders had moved the sofa so it was inaccessible ). I told him I wasn?t prepared to share my life or my bed with someone who doesn?t respect me enough to be honest to me, and that I want him to produce his budget.

He was really childish in response, saying that by making him sleep on the floor I was showing him I didn?t think it was his house. I stood up for myself and I said no, it is my house, it may be his home, but it is my house, as I was the one paying for it, and if he didn?t like it, he could find somewhere else to live.

I left him sleeping on the floor ? he must have been freezing. Clearly he didn?t like sleeping on the floor as this morning he asked for my bank details to set up a direct debit to me for the bill money. He says it is heard for him to access his paperwork until the builders move our belongings back, so he couldn?t do the budget today but he will have it for Tuesday for our relate session. I said I am not happy with this, I am not paying the counsellor to go through bits of paper, it all needs to be set out properly and i need to have seen it before we go on Tuesday or I am not going.

I am determined to toughen up now and stop paying for him.

My reason for only charging him £400/ month was to allow him to save £400 a month towards the honeymoon, if he had stuck with the plan, he would have been able to save £5,000, which is enough for a honeymoon ( I am more a backpacking than luxury holiday type). He hasn?t done this.

I don?t really care what he has spent the money on ? I know it is drinks in the pub, coffees, newspapers and magazines (an eye watering £20 a week on just those!), but it is not carrying on. He can either cough up or move out.

A major problem is that his mother has ALWAYS bailed him out. Apparently this evening when he rang her she said she was proud of him. I would not be proud of my adult son calling me to ask for a handout.

His brother is the same as him ? relying on his wife and his mother ? I don?t have any respect for him and I am losing respect for my fiancé. The only way that this will work is if he actually lets me control the finances.

But will he let you control the finances, I doubt it. If will take out credit behind Zeus back and give you the bill

Think about this last thing you say "if he lets me control the finances"

At the moment he has an awful lot of control over your money without having any claim on it simply because he is entitled and lazy and is having this attitude constantly reinforced by his mother and enabled by you. If you marry he will have some claim on your money, if you have a baby you may need to be more dependent on him. How is this likely to work out in reality when at the moment now you don't even really have control of your own private earnings that he has no claim on?

I have told him I will NEVER pay any credit card debt off for him, and this is one of the reasons for having a pre-nup. I am also not happy that he has made no pension provision ? in my view that is his choice, he had the money to do this, but chose to fritter it away instead and so in the event of a split, I am not willing to let him have a claim on my pension.

Some very insightful comments. Yes, part of the powerful chemistry is that he is very, very much like my father.

That is true Offred, which is why i need to stop lending him money or undercharging him for the bills now.

I also realise the comments about women having a mothering instinct are true, I am like a mother hen with all my friends as well. he has very boyish looks and it does bring out my maternal feelings.

This is the kind of thread Xenia avoids like the plague I suspect because it shows you very clearly that being a high flyer in terms of your employment as a woman means nothing if you have a partner who controls how you spend your money, overtly or manipulatively...

Op you are correct to imply it is important that the person who controls the money is trustworthy and that he isn't BUT it just isn't practical to suggest that someone who has no qualms bullying, manipulating and coercing you out of your money when you are not married (and they have no legal entitlement) will suddenly relinquish that power and control when they marry you and DO have some claim on it.

It isn't a case of "it will only work if i have control over the money" (yours and his) because to achieve the level of control necessary you would have to prevent him having any real access to anything (and also prevent him being able to manipulate you) and this is not healthy in a relationship and not fair to him as a person to be so controlled by you financially, it is a case of simply "there is no way this is going to work".

I think you should be careful about the protection offered by a prenup too. They aren't necessarily legally enforceable and for the reasons you want one I would advise not legally marrying him (which is not necessary either as I can see) rather than trying to protect yourself from his poor financial decisions as going into marriage you are financially supporting him and this may be seen as his expectation of the marriage.

It shouldn't be this much like hard work, it really shouldn't. He sounds like a horrible, stubborn child.

If you want to mother someone, have a baby. If you want someone to have an equal partnership with, who you can respect, trust and rely on - then go and find another man because this one is not going to give you those things.

Pre nup would only come into play if you were divorcing anyway, is that going to happen? I suspect if you were miserable after you had a baby you'd become one of the "but I owe it to dc to make it work" crowd.

If he really loves you then he will love you still even if you give him no money.

OP, all your posts seem to be premised on the idea that your DP is hopeless with money, 'can't' manage money and has to learn to budget.

I don't think that is necessarily true. I think he may be fundamentally selfish, with little or no impulse control. See it, have it. I suspect he never thinks about anyone else and the consequences his choices will have on them. He is very probably someone who resents denying himself anything and sees no reason to do it, because all the things YOU want-parity, commitment, baby-are simply not important enough to him. It is unlikely he really means what he promises, even in the moment he is saying the words.

The only way that you will get even the semblance of a fair contribution from him will be if you nag him into doing it and parent him through it, which he will immediately resent and even hate you for. He will then become one of those disgruntled men sitting in bars telling impressionable younger women a sob story that his wife doesn't understand him and tries to control him (before he gets off with them).

If you were a tough, confident divorcee with a couple of kids, lived separately from this man and only met up for fun and sex the relationship might work well. Becoming his wife, keeper and the mother of his children is hugely high-risk. Please do think about it carefully, possibly with a new counsellor.

What do your friends have to say about it all?

Eldritch
Good post.

OP I tend to manage the money more than DH partly because I enjoy doing it more than him. However, if I suggested a budget for something e.g. if DH was doing the food shop or booking a holiday he would not see this as an imposition to be argued against and subverted, instead he'd probably see it as personal challenge to come in under budget. He would view any money he saved as a bonus to the family rather than a restriction on his fun.

If you are planning to have children, the last thing you want is a partner who puts their own needs first financially. If you have a 3 week old baby and your DF goes on a food shop with an agreed budget would he buy everything you need and would he stick to the budget? I suspect he would come back with 3/4 of what you really needed, some stuff he fancied, some magazines for himself and £15 over budget.

Also, I hear Pre nups are not worth the paper they are written on, in the UK.