To say we can’t afford to visit DF’s family at Christmas

[Ambivalence]

My DF ( fiancé) is pretty hopeless with money and so I have been nagging him for ages to prepare a list of his incomings/ outgoings so that we can prepare a joint budget. I have also been nagging him to check his finances before committing to things, rather than just spending the money and asking me to bail him out. He is not good at living within his means, which I realise is unlikely to ever change as he is 46!

He has now just texted me with the conclusion that we should not go to Holland for Christmas as it would be cheaper to stay at home ( he doesn?t get paid time off anyway).

I have texted back to say we will discuss it tonight. I feel really mean to agree with him, and let him spend Christmas without his family and friends but it would be a lesson to him about working out what you can afford before making plans ( we just went to Holland a week ago for his birthday ? he booked the wrong flights and so lost 2 days wages as a result, and spent £200 hosting a party in a bar for his friend).

I am a bit annoyed with him about money anyway as he has been in a low paid call centre (£9/ hour) job since he moved to London in the spring ? despite promising to look for something in his field and at a professional salary comparable to the job he left ( her hasn?t put much effort into this), and he is disorganised about giving me money towards the bills ( no rent as I pay the mortgage on my flat) and I have been asking him for months to set up a weekly standing order/ direct debit to me, as he is paid weekly and his budgeting skills are poor.

I feel really mean saying we can?t afford to go to see his family, but in the end I think this might be a lesson learned for him. He never saves anything for a rainy day. I have just had to spend my rainy day fund on some unexpected building work and so don?t have funds to bail him out. Should I agree with him we can?t afford the trip at Christmas or be kind and pay for it?

ambivalence
I am listening to the advice i am being given, and changing my behaviour as a result.

I really hope you are because you seem hell bent on marrying this loser. I posted on one of your earlier threads suggesting that, at the very least, you prospone any marriage plans for a few years. I still think this is the very least you should do.

Is he still binge drinking and smoking?

Postpone not propone.

Actually, he sounds pretty good to me. OP and her friends list lots of positive qualities and say how happy he makes her.

OP - I don't think you can take the high moral ground. You don't like the thought of staying home to care for any future babies you might have and plan to increase your working hours if you have children so you can pay for private secondary education. You have weird priorities if you ask me.

It goes from bad to worse! So he did give me the £200 back for the bar bill, but had also made an appointment with the bank to discuss getting out a loan. He owes £1,500 on a credit card ( this is the balance for my engagement ring). His mother gave him 5,000 Euros ( approx £4,000) in August, and so I thought the balance for the engagement ring had been cleared, but no ? he had also received Dutch tax bill and spent the money on that instead.

His mother is sending him £2,200 euros (approx £1800) which should arrive in the next week or so. I think this is a bail out rather than a Christmas present. He had been planning to spend that on settling his credit card and take out a £5,000 loan to pay for Christmas and our honeymoon.

I have told him he should absolutely not take out a loan, and that he needed to be honest to me about where his money goes so that we can make a budget ( he needs to take ownership of this).

He said he has prepared his financial info for Tuesday?s relate session, but so far ? all I( have been told is that he has £400 in his current account, owes £1,500 on his credit card ( this has been outstanding since August so might be more than that now ? he has not told me what the interest rate is on the card), and is expecting 2,200 euros ( approx £1,800) from his mother.

My friends and my mother all say that I need to nag him less about this, and that if I keep going on about this, he won?t listen.

I am really cross that he would contemplate taking out a loan without telling me! I hope he would be refused one anyway.

My friends ( female and male, have discussed this with 5 married friends and one of their husbands) unilateral advice is that I need to persuade him to set up weekly direct debits for the bills, savings etc and he needs to be on a reduced, cash only spending money - eg £50 a week.

I am horrified that on the way back from making an appointment with the bank for a £5,000 loan, he decided to stop at the pub and treat himself to a £5 glass of wine ? he just seems unable to correlate his behaviour! He admits that he has no savings because he spends his money on cigarettes and down the pub, but then does nothing at all to change.

I am thoroughly fed up! I am also annoyed that advice from my friends has been to tip toe around this subject.

You don't really want any advice,you will just ignore it especially when it's not what you want to hear.

I do want advice on how to handle this and what to do. The advice I am ignoring is to leave him, because I don?t intend to do this. As far as i am concerned I have made a commitment in getting engaged to marry, and I am not going to postpone the wedding or leave him. I would like advice on how to approach things with him and what to do though.

I understand my position must be very frustrating, but I do want advice.

meh.

This will only get worse.

Ignoring the romantic aspect for a moment, do you need credit for your job?

If you do, you cannot marry him until he has got this under control. You may be able to pay off his debts now, but he'll just run up more while living this life that he can't afford, and hide it from you. Your credit file will become trashed by association.

I'd also consider legal protection like a pre nup, and make sure any money you put into properties like deposits is protected. If you are intent on going down this road with him, you need to protect yourself and your future children from him.

He isn't going to change. That's the big decision between him and your dad. Your dad must have wanted to change, and be able too. What if your fiance can't? What if he doesn't want too?

Take care of the practicalities.

OP how can we advise you? You cannot make a person change, only they can do that.

Now going back to your example of your parents. Clearly your father loved your mother enough to be motivated to alter his behaviour. It seems that your partner does not live you enough - more he doesn't have to because you have made it clear that you will accept whatever treatment he chooses to meet out.

What happened to all your sanctions?

You need to grow a backbone, and until you do no-one can help you.

Just read through this, and wanted to post. As you have said, 'I am not going to postpone the wedding or leave him.' So basically, what you are saying to us, and clearly, to him, is that nothing he is doing is actually a deal breaker for you. So why on earth would he change? He's had a lifetime of being bailed out by his mum. He is replicating this pattern with you. And like that of a mother, your love seems pretty much unconditional. But he is not your child.

Well he did pay the £200 for the bar bill, he has set up a weekly direct debit for the £100 bill money ( although this does not start until January, which I am not pleased with, and I will be expecting this all to be up to date before Christmas).

We are going to the Relate counsellor tomorrow to discuss this budget ? he has told me what he owes, but he hasn?t come up with a plan of how to save. Tomorrow night I need him to agree to set up (1) start the direct debit for the bill money straight away
(2) set up a direct debit to me of £50 a week which will be his emergency savings
(3) come up with a schedule for paying off the credit card and a plan for saving for the honeymoon.

I realise he is not motivated to change as he knows I am not going to end the relationship, but equally I am not willing to let him carry on as he has been ? frittering away his money and now ? getting into debt. I realise he has to reach rock bottom in order to change. I am hoping that not being able to see his family for Christmas will be that rock bottom.

I agree with the posters above. Do you really think he will improve? OF COURSE NOT. Like the others have said time and time again - why should he? He knows you won't leave him, he has no reason to change. And you're thinking of throwing a baby into that mix? I'm going hide this thread, too depressing.

I am not willing to let him carry on as he has been

Yes you are. Because you are determined to marry him no matter what. So even if you end up paying for the honeymoon, the family house, the school fees and everything else yourself, you will still marry him and stay with him.

I think love should be unconditional ? and he is being crap with money ? it is not like he is cheating on me, or abusing me. I have been brought up with the view that marriage is for life, and you work through your problems. We have promised to marry each other, and so are in a committed relationship. I am not just going to walk off.

So the sanctions I can impose are withdrawing my support and affection ? that is it.

It is difficult because he is being treated for depression ( it seems quite severe as at the doctors it was 19/26 in her scale of severity) and only recently does it seem the anti-depressants are up to an effective dose. I wouldn?t expect him to walk out on me if I was depressed.

It seems all I can do is let him flounder financially until he is motivated to sort things out, and just not depend on him financially at all.

Earlier on this thread I said that he yo le take out credit agreements behind your back. You said he would never dotthat. If just has.

There is no advice anyone can give you. He
won't change and you won't leave him no matter what. The only advice we can give is to get ready for a lifetime of this. Because that is what you are choosing.

But he will never hit bottom. His mum will step in and sort him out, like she always has.

I am not minimising him taking out credit behind my back ? I am really shocked he would even think of this. I have made it clear to him that I won?t pay his credit cards. I don?t think ending the relationship is an option though. What else can I do?

What is the point of this thread, OP?

You don't want advice, you say you do but are cheerfully ignoring it, I can picture you fingers in ears going 'lalala I can't hear you'.

You say he's not abusing you. Financial deprivation is domestic abuse. You may not rely on him financially but he is depriving you of your own finances whilst he happily cocklodges.

Actually you know what I can't be arsed as you're not listening.

If you don't want to cancel the wedding, why don't you postpone it (as already suggested by lots of sensible MN'ers including me )

If you were not planning to have DC's then I think it is OK to marry whoever you want but you are choosing this manboy to be the father of your, yet unborn, DC's. You will have a family with underlying financial and emotional problems. Do you honestly think it is a good idea? Misty eyed love DOES NOT conquer all.

Seriously, think of the children!

Are you sure it is not just misplaced pride that stops you postponing the wedding?

(ps. I am see that his previous declarations to stop smoking have amounted to nothing)

Of course he is abusing you. He is lying to you about money, taking out loans behind your back and and expecting you to fund his living expenses and lifestyle.

He is depressed. Ok, but he has always been shit with money. So it isn't a product of the depression.

You are going to withdraw your support and affection, but still marry him? Are you absolutely deluded?

WHY is ending the relationship not an option?

Is it because you would lose face in front of your family and friends?

It's not all you can do. You can choose to realize he is a selfish idiot and move on.

I think love should be unconditional ? and he is being crap with money ? it is not like he is cheating on me, or abusing me

Yes he is abusing you, financial abuse is a form of abuse. Look at the amount of energy and headspace its taking up for you. Its sucking all the joy out of your relationship and killing the trust. When you are married and you get your card declined in the supermarket because he has empty the joint account how will you feel? When you get baliffs trying to get entry to your property because he is behind with his loan or credit card payments listed at your marital home address will you still just think he is a bit crap with money?

"Financial abuse can take many forms, from denying you all access to funds, to making you solely responsible for all finances while handling money irresponsibly him or herself."
www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/financial_abuse.html

You keep "making it clear " to him about things but he doesn't give a hoot. The only thing you are making clear is he can do what the hell he wants. I think infidelity can't be far behind. "He would never do that" I hear you cry....you said that about him taking out credit behind your back.

For goodness sake postpone the wedding.