to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Just as much to blame are the Arab countries surrounding Israeli and the occupied territories, fomenting a refugee problem and anti-Israeli hostility. They could have done so much more.

A refugee problem?

Brycie - If Israel hadn't forced them off their land, there wouldn't be any refugee situation. The Palestinians uphold that they have a right to return to their land. If they were given citizenship en masse to another country, this would greatly undermine this claim.

It is not the fault of the Arab countries that the injustice faced by Palestinians is yet to be resolved.

Iran has stated many times that it wishes to annihilate Israel. Israel has made no such claims on iran. Israel is a democracy, Iran is a murderous theocracy. Spot the differences. Israel will only use nuclear weapons as a form mutually assured self destruction. I'm glad Israel has nuclear weapons.

I was no fan of Ariel Sharon but he wasn't a 'butcher'. That's the kind of anti Israeli/anti Semitic hyperbole one gets used to hearing.

And I'm not sure I get the Logic regarding compensating Jews who were EXPELLED from Arab lands. So, because anti Semitic Arab countries decided that they were going to expel all Jews because the state of Israel had been created and steal all their property and businesses, Israel owes those people reparations because it dared to exist? Not enough that Israel had to absorb all those jewish refugees, they need to pay them the reparations they are owed by arab countries because the Arab counties are anti Semitic and used the existence of the state of israel as excuse to expel its jeiwsh citizens. Wow!!!

I suppose there will always be people who think the Jewish diaspora should have stayed just that and never have had their own state, despite what happened to the diaspora in the thirties and forties. Most people have sympathy with both sides, I do, but one does need to think about things a little harder sometimes.

Gothanngeddes

The Palestinians caused their own tragedy. They could have accepted the peel partition, the UN partition. But no, they chose not to. Many of them left of their own free will, the ones who stayed became the Arab citizens of Israel.

The Arab counties could have assimilated the Palestinians, just like Israel assimilated the Jewish refugees from Arab countries. But, no, better to cling to a rather pathetic hope of annihilating Israel.

My father remembers when the Arabs left his town which was mixed. They all got into trucks and told them that when the syrian army comes, they'll come back and slit all their throats. And the Syrian army was only stopped 10 km from his town.

"dared to exist" = stole a country and expelled it's people triggering a massive humanitarian crises in the region.

Sharon is definitely a butcher. You can read about him murdering civilians here: m.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/feb/04/israel?cat=world&type=article

As for Israel being a democracy, well I suppose South Africa under apartheid was also a democracy too. There are certainly many parallels that can be drawn between the two countries, although even Desmond Tutu feels that Palestinians have it worse then black people in townships.

As for Iran wanting to "wipe Israel off the map", that was misquoted, see here: m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/02/comment.usa?cat=commentisfree&type=article and google will provide plenty of back up to support that.

I note no one's yet mentioned MEMRI and the misinformation they spread, or GIYUS or Hasbara.

Oh the Guardian. Bit of an anti-semitic rag you're relying on there. It's a style of thinking that's been pretty popular at times over the decades.

Is this the one debate where Godwin's law doesn't apply?

Elaine - "the Palestinians cause their own tragedy" ?!!!

Fuck me that is dense and offensive. Well done. Two birds one stone.

Israel never existed (for thousands of years) prior to the allies deciding it did in 1948...It's not the Israeli civilians fault. But I really can't blame Palestinians for being really fucking angry that their land,home and country has been all but eradicated.

Brycie - no British media outlet is overtly or subverted anti-Semitic. Reporting from both sides of the situation does not make a newspaper anti-Semitic.

Though your statements on here quite clearly explain your comments on other threads perfectly well.

Elaine - tell me exactly why the Palestinians should accept having their land and homes stolen?

I asked you upthread but you didn't answer:

If someone stole your house (which you'd bought and paid for) and said you could have half of it back, would you be happy with that?

Again. The Palestinians want to live in Palestine. They feel they have a right to return to Palestine. They do not want to be Jordanian, Syrian, etc. They are Palestinian and want to remain so and want to return to Palestine.

Again Israel caused the problem, they are the thieves, why should other countries pay for their theft?

How sloppy of the Syrians, the Israeli army is much better at killing civilians then that, they are so superior

What did you mean by your question "a refugee problem"? Did you not know about Palestinian refugees?

The palestinians did steal my grandparents house.

Goths I tried that one with my "France finds a book that says all but North Wales is theirs and makes everyone in Wales move there" analogy and got no response to that re Palestinians being really angry at their land and homes being stolen.

Elaine you have in no way addressed what I said.

Brycie your comment implied that Palestinians are not being treated as refugees in their own land. Which they are .

Alis: did you not know about Palestinian refugees? Are you aware that Jordon has actually revoked citizenship cards it awarded to thousands of refugees, specifically in order for them not to lose their "Palestinian refugee" status, specifically to prevent people leaving the territories and thus awarding what it would see as a "peaceful" victory to Israel?

It didn't do anything of the sort. It said "fomenting a refugee problem". I suppose people read want they want according to their prejudice. It happens to us all.

"Again Israel caused the problem, they are the thieves"

Do be careful. I mean - really careful. You aren't looking good here.

"Brycie - no British media outlet is overtly or subverted anti-Semitic. "

The Guardian couldn't possibly be overtly anti-semitic, that would undermine its principles. Being overtly anti-semitic.

The allies did not decide that Israel existed in 1948. What a silly thing to say. Israel declared independence in 1948 with no help from the allies who were sure it was about to be annihilated being invaded by 5 countries.

Firstly, there has always been a Jewish community in Israel, always.

Secondly, Jews began immigrating to Israel in the late 19th century. They BOUGHT the land and often settled swamps and other previously uninhabited areas. No one threw anyone off their land.

A Palestinian country has never existed, ever. So I'm not sure what country has been wiped out. Despite the challenges, Israel has flourished over the years.

The Palestinians turned down the peel partition plan. They tuned down the UN partition plan. They turned down any peace deal in Khartoum in 1967. they started the second intifada.

Sure, they may wish that Israel was not the Jewish homeland. But they are just as responsible for their current situation. firing rockets into Israel will not move them along the path to statehood.

It's quite shocking that you are so supportive of Iran! Iran most certainly has threatened many times to annihilate Israel and denies the existence of the holocaust. I guess you sympathize because Israel has stolen Iranian land, oh wait, no it hasn't!

. As I have said multiple times throughout this thread I don't blame either set of civilians.

Israel as a state? Israel has stolen land for years and nothing has been done about it. Nothing. That is fundamentally wrong..

As an aside (slight aside) Elaine do you think it's possible that this was ratcheted at this particular time in order to make it impossible to give observer state status to the Palestinians at the UN in a couple of weeks?

Brycie give links to an example of the Guardian being anti Semitic. Reporting news from the the perspective of the other side does not make it anti Semitic.

Elaine - answer my question please.
The one about if someone stole your house. Until you answer that, I won't engage with you further.