to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Very one sided argument. Israelis have died and been critically wounded in these attacks, the social and economic life of the southern part of the country completely disrupted - and this article sums it up as a woman having to call autoglass. Disgusting.

No one ever said it was an even battle. We all know that Israel could, if so inclined, completely obliterate the Gaza Strip. We also know that Hamas would, if it could, obliterate Israel since their stated target is Israeli citizens and civillian life (look at their jubilation at the bus bombing). So I'm pretty grateful that it's not an even battle. I didn't know that evenness on both sides was a rule of warfare!

Also, Gilad Sharon is not a person of power in Israel. He's a writer, he wrote his opinion. Why not look at Haaretz rather than the Jerusalem Post? Why not look at what Israeli writers like Gidon Levy, Amira Hass, Uri Avnery are saying? Where are those kind of voices in Palestinian society?

what jubilation? real question as I have not seen any, I have seen some posts saying they think Israel committed the bus bombing themselves to hinder ceasefire talks, but I haven't seen any jubilation.

Really, I think you might be hanging out too much on conspiracy and rumour mongering websites!

You also saw unsubstantiated posts about white phosphorus and Israel asking civilians to evacuate to an area and then 'massacring' them - and still have provided any credible link to back up those claims.

Here you go, BBC reported 'celebratory gunfire'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

And it wouldn't be the first time. They probably would have given out sweets if it would have been more 'successful'.

And from Reuters:
www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/21/us-israel-telaviv-bus-explosion-idUSBRE8AK0HS20121121

Turns out they did give out sweets!

nah, just facebook and twitter

I prefer to talk to people I know In Gaza to find out what is going on.

I understand that is not credible to you.

To me it is not understandable that Israel are saying they sent rockets to us, so we will bomb them in retaliation, and that is justifiable, but when Palestinians respond with an attack of their own it is not justifiable?

I don't get it?

anyway the bbc reporter says "One resident - when told that the news of the explosion broadcast from mosques in Gaza has been greeted with a sound of celebratory gunfire there - said that they need to celebrate this as some kind of victory because they have nothing else to offer but violence." so when one resident reports something to bbc it is credible, but when one resident reports something themselves it is not?

The white phosphporous reports came from the ministry of health in Gaza and Drs in Gaza who were treating the wounds.

fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/665780_301485356622991_635912942_o.jpg

pics not graphic

Sounds to me like you've been listening to rumours and pretty bad ones at that and I think you're quite naive and gullible to believe them.

If white phosphorus were being used, I'm sure Hamas would have taken journalists to the hospitals to see the wounds.

The resident explained to the BBC why the Palestinians felt the need to fire guns in celebration. Reuters also reported it, even Al Jazeera. The celebratory gunfire happened and it wouldn't be the first time Palestinians have celebrated the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians. Would you like me to link to the news stories? There have been many over the years! Why don't you ask your friends in Gaza? They'll probably excuse it but I doubt they'll deny it.

The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Hamas sees civillian casualties as a success and Israel as a failure. I agree that there are too many Palestinian casualties and that's not right and is a tragedy. But if Hamas cared so deeply for its own civilians, stop firing missiles!

That photo is from January 2009 Nalaik when there was an incident when white phosphorus was used illegally in Gaza by Israel (there are legal uses to create a smoke cloud) and the soldiers who used it were disciplined.

i think we have a difference of opinion in what we deem credible. The BBC clearly said "One resident" explained it as....

Why does Israel get to have a military and fire in to Gaza, but Gaza does not get to have a military and fire in to Israel?

If Israel cared so much about its own civillians, then stop the oppression in Gaza, stop the apartheid of Palestinians in Israel, stop the illegal settlements, the blockade, the destruction of olive groves. Then there would be no Palestinians firing rockets. If Israel was peaceful then Hamas wouldnt want to wipe them of the map.

Ok I have seen photos of the white phosphorous burns from these attacks, however I dont share graphic stuff.

I accept that photo is of the last attacks. The soldiers were disciplined, how? who ordered them to use it? I don't understand.

You really don't think the Palestinians celebrated? Reuters reported the same. You know that every time there is a suicide bombing in Israel, sweets are handed round?

I've said before that I think that the settlements are wrong, that being an occupying force is destroying Israel from within.

But it was the Palestinians who derailed the peace process, it was the Palestinians who began the second intifada.

Prior to the second intifada, the Palestinians certainly had the moral imperative. THe first intifada was completely justified and Palestinian aspirations for statehood would have been achieved because they are just.

But the Palestinians decided to abandon the peace process and go down the path of violence. Everyone knows that.

Israel evacuated every last inch of the gaza strip. There are no settlers or soldiers there. Yet what good did it do them? How can they now just pull out of the West Bank?

Hamas don't want peace with Israel. It's not in their charter. They wish to destroy Israel and they're quite open about it.

I'm certainly not justifying the illegal use of white phosphorus! It's causes terrible injuries and damage and has no place where civillians are.

From what I understand, it was used to create a smokescreen which is legal and fired mistakenly at a target. However, following the report (which should be accessible) and to avoid future mistakes, Israel decided not to use white phosphorus in urban areas, even for legal uses.

Since you clearly relied on photos from 2009, maybe your graphic photos are also from then? I suspect so. There are many international journalists in Gaza. Someone would be reporting on it.

Cease fire has just come into force. The rockets are still landing in Israel though.

Do you STILL not believe that there were celebrations in Gaza following the bus bombing Nailak?

Can understand folk who have links, say family and friends in Gaza and Israel being angry and biased. What has annoyed me is the folk from the UK who insist Israel has had no provocotian to take action against the constant bombardment of rockets. Dismissing these attacks of no consequence just because the death rate is relatively low and many rockets are shot down or miss the intended target. these attacks aren't really reported in the UK press, have they no imagination what it must be like to live with that constant threat, the air raid sirens going off, your children and loved ones not with you and only having seconds to find cover. Running for bomb shelters, schools and everyday living being constantly disrupted? Think of the children and people living this life - can you really just nonchalantly dismiss this? If so then I guess you have no complaint of when the IRA agreed the UK, any Al Queida attacks, the 7/7 bombings - after all they are just a minority fighting against a much better equipped and bigger oppressor. I think there is a lot of hipocracy on this board from folk who would soon change their mind if they had to deal with what the folk in Southern Israel have been dealing with.

The Palestinians do have major reason for the hate and have provocation, I can understand the need to fire on Israel, carry out suicide bombings - but it doesn't seem to be getting them any further forward and they end up annoying a much bigger and better equipped enemy who can harm them more than they can harm them. Don't know when both sides will have had enough and actually try and find a compromise for a more peaceful co existence.

Or even 'when the IRA targeted the UK'.

What do Palestinians have left to lose?

Yes, the rockets are provocative, but when there is no hope, then what are they going to strive towards?

I understand that but then they know that eventually the Israelis will bite back to protect their own. Seems a ceasefire has been declared - lets see what happens.

This is a bit
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/20/article-2235635-1621F8B1000005DC-779_634x404.jpg

Apologies for DM etc though.

Yet more anti-Israel propaganda. It's not really surprising though, considering how biased the BBC are.

Is anyone questioning the legitimacy of Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas? Or the fact that 10% explode before they even reach Israel, killing Palestinian children? (Whose photos they then use as anti-Israel propaganda).

Israel is targeting military targets. Hamas are targeting civilians indiscriminately.

Did anyone here about how a block of flat in Rishon Lezion (a highly populated suburb of Tel Aviv) was hit today? Probably not, as the BBC has overlooked reporting it.

Hamas broke the ceasefire and are now claiming that Israel is the aggressor, ironic much?

Surely the BBC is a totally balanced and unbiased reporter of news splashy?

Thank heavens for the ceasefire - I hope against hope that it holds.

150 Palestinians and 5 Israelis have been killed in the past week.

Pessary you are joking right?

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8402973/A-family-slaughtered-in-Israel-doesnt-the-BBC-care.html