to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

anybody in this thread who said it is anti semitic to disagree with Israel, lose a life, I can say this in the full knowledge of being Jewish but not, Gran was Jewish, unfortunatly she had 3 sons who all married out,
oh..is there an election soon? I wonder?

As another aside, the settler issues are deeply provocative. However it would much more interesting to talk to you Elaine about it, but I doubt that would be possible without the intervention of Dave Spart central.

"Lose a life"? I am no longer a teenager and don't understand this phrase.

You see, Alis, I have no problem criticizing Israeli actions with regards to the Palestinians. I believe that the settler movement is harmful to Israel and has held Israelis hostage and led to very unjust behavior in the west bank and gaza strip. Occupation is ruining Israel from within.

What I can't stand are some of the one sided bigoted opinions where Israel is portrayed as evil incarnate and the Palestinians are just innocent victims. There's a real whiff of anti semitism.

brycie
No idea, I was thinking more of the upcoming elections. I can't stand Bibi Netanyahu and I wouldn't put it past him to escalate things in order to win votes. And Hamas play straight into his hands.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the palestinian request. I don't completely get why Israel is so dead set against it!

Elaine not for one second did I suggest that Jewish people had not lived in the area now known as Israel for thousands of years. Nor will I deny the fact that Israel did not exist as a state/country for over a thousand years minimum. Nor will I deny the role Britain,along with the other allies, played in drawing up meaningless borders. As they did,in their colonial way,with Africa and indeed Europe (following WWI) and Israel.

It's not anti semitic to criticize Israel, of course not? Many Jewish Israelis do so and quite rightly in my opinion. I'm part Israeli and have no sympathy for the current government and its actions.

What is anti Semitic is the constant reference to the holocaust (someone likened gaza to dachau!) and the demonization of Israel as the devil incarnate who use any excuse to even question israels right to even exist a la Gothanngeddes.

*also I do not deny Israels right to exist.

As I said earlier on in this thread,Israel was 40 years strong as a nation when I was born. Arguing it shouldn't exist is as bizarre to me as arguing Spain shouldn't exist. It exists,it has a history,a culture,people live there and feel passionately patriotic.

I disagree with people likening it to the Holocaust.

Concentration camps were not invented in the WW2 era. They pre date that by at least 50 years. Shamefully at the hands of the British during the Boer Wars.

"What I can't stand are some of the one sided bigoted opinions where Israel is portrayed as evil incarnate and the Palestinians are just innocent victims. There's a real whiff of anti semitism."

I agree with this totally.

You can see where the problem starts and is embedded when you read that sort of opinion. Absolute refusal to see beyond and around one point of view. The same events viewed through a different lens - the mature point of view is to at least recognise that there is another lens.

Netanyahu has got something up his sleeve, blaming the previous rocket attacks seems red-herringy. The timing can't be a coincidence. Although I would not say elections, I would say UN. (but you know, what do I know)

Well, it's true that the british did give trans jordan to the Palestinians. That's also a Palestinian state

But the British didn't want Israel to declare independence, it wasn't an ally invention as compensation for the slaughter of 6 million, they abstained on the UN vote for partition.

The Zionist movement built the state in waiting which was declared in 1948 on the basis of 1947 partition plan - which the Arabs rejected and invaded Israel in order to 'push the Jews into the sea'. Luckily they didn't manage to do so, although Gothanngeddes wouldn't agree.

alis
I don't see how you can disagree about people likening it to the holocaust, it's a fact.
I was walking home past a demonstration outside the Israeli consulate this evening and there were plenty of signs saying that gaza is like the Warsaw ghetto. And on this very thread someone likened it to dachau. No concentration camp comparison is fitting in this case but certainly not holocaust ones.

brycie
I dont know much about why this is all kicking off either. I'll try and read what the pundits are saying this weekend.

I don't believe Goths thinks it's a shame thousands more Jewish people didn't die.

That isn't what she has been saying throughout this thread at all.

I don't think Britain abstaining from voting for partition was anything other than foresight. Look at the situation now.

Is it prudent to add Einstein flat out refused to be the first head of state re Israel also?

Also this thread has undoubtedly been an interesting one,the past is not relevant to the current situation. Discussing how Israel came into existence changes nothing regarding the land that was stolen from the Palestinians after 1967.

Elaine I'm not sure if you understood me in my last post or I've misunderstood you in your last post but...what I meant is : I do not agree with people who liken the current situation in Gaza to Dachau and other WW2 concentration camps.

That isn't to say that the situation is unlike all other concentration camps. As I said previously, concentration camps pre dated WW2.

The concentration camps in WW2 were designed and used in a very different way however and that is not comparable to the situation in Gaza. It quite simple is not and analogies that draw on them are at the very best lazy at worst wilfully ignorant.

alis
Einstein was asked to be the 2nd president when chaim Weizmann died in 1952. He refused because he didn't feel he had the diplomatic skills and abilities but he was a very strong supporter of Israel. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make?

I agree that the 'who was here first argument' doesn't help. The Palestinians need to move forward with the two state solution based on the pre 1967 borders. It's the only possible viable solution.

Elaine absolutely. From an outsiders perspective, which I am given I have no vested interest in either country,it certainly seems to be the only way. I hope that that very solution is reached before more lives are lost and more suffering is caused.

Alis, excuse me I did not see your post earlier and have just read back.

The Guardian

Ok once again, I did not liken Gaza to Dachau. I said it's not implausible to compare Gaza to an open-air concentration camp, but one that was closer to the model of Dachau, not Auschwitz.

To me this is an important point because Dachau and Auschwitz were very different places. Auschwitz was one of six 'extermination camps', where people were sent solely for the purpose of being killed. As I said, I do not think you can compare Gaza to Auschwitz.

Dachau was not an extermination camp, but a concentration camp; the majority of its prisoners over the years were political prisoners. There was no gas chamber or huge massacres, people tended to die of disease and malnutrition. Obviously it was still a very horrible place, but it was not Auschwitz. I think over the years 10 percent of the people sent there died.

I personally would not compare Gaza to Dachau, I only meant to point out that if people were to do so it can only fall in the realm of plausibility if they are comparing it to a place like Dachau which was closer to the usual model of concentration camps as have existed elsewhere and not Auschwitz.

But I do apologise if I have offended anyone with this point. I am used to doing academic research in this area, which is much less emotive.

Thanks Brycie that was a really interesting read. I'm not a Guardian reader myself, but I am aware of it's reputation as the "right on" newspaper of choice. Very interesting article.

Sorry Dreaming my comment wasn't aimed at you personally! It is definitely different talking about subjects like this in a non academic setting. I know what you mean.

I actually came back to suggest people read this very interesting piece in the New York Times by an Israeli peace negotiator:

www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

He explains how he has been negotiating a long-term ceasefire agreement with a Hamas official who represented the Hamas military commander who Israel just assassinated. He feels the ceasefire was on the brink of being agreed upon, but obviously now that's not going to happen.

He argues that the Hamas military commander was basically a pragmatic guy who saw the current situation as futile. The people who fire rockets into Israel are often not Hamas but Islamic Jihad and other Salafi groups, yet it is Hamas and Palestinian civilians who suffer the consequences when Israel retaliates. Yet, these primitive rockets don't really do much damage to Israel. So it's a bad strategy on their part.

It very much leads to the implication that quite simply there are political powers who do not want peace.

I also think it's helpful for breaking down our tendency to refer to Palestinians and Israelis as monolithic blocs of people. There are so many different groups and factions in Gaza, Hamas does not control them all, so to speak of "the Palestinians" or Hamas doing this or that can be misleading.

Alis, yes you are right, it's very different, I should be more careful really!

"I personally would not compare Gaza to Dachau, I only meant to point out that if people were to do so it can only fall in the realm of plausibility"

Yes, "People" didn't compare it, you did.
No one else spoke of this in the thread, you did.

And no, in my world it doesn't fall in the "realm of plausibility" at all.

The cautious wording and the use of the conditional "if" is a poor disguise of the fact.

"I am used to doing academic research in this area"
"I used to work at a Holocaust research center so I do know a little bit about this thanks."

Is this supposed to confer your statements some type of neutral/factual authority? BNP members seem very well versed in subjects like Immigration too for example; doesn't mean they're impartial in the subject.

Anyway, my point is I'm tired of the way Israel is constantly demonised and vilified and how people don't seem to acknowledge that the current situation is categorically not the product of unilateral action.

I'm sick of how people seem to dismiss the loss of Israeli lives. The lack of "efficiency" of the primitive rockets has been mentioned more than once in the context of "only 5 israelis died in last 10 days". It's offensive.

Poppy.

Disagreeing with Israel's actions over the course of years does not equate to demonising it. It simply does not.

Alis, yes you're right.

But attributing all responsibility to the State of Israel does.

No, another poster first compared Gaza to a concentration camp, and Elaine said she was ignorant or prejudiced to do so.

My comments were addressing that exchange. A lot of people compare Gaza to an open-air concentration camp. It's not something I made up! And I offered my thoughts on it.

You see my language as cautious -- no, I'm just trying to be precise.

I only mentioned my working in Holocaust research because you and Elaine then went on to say that people like me were just ignorant and ill-informed. Well, no, I'm not ignorant, I just don't agree with you.

I'm not BNP or anti-Semitic or anything malicious. I have never worked for anyone but mainstream, centrist and well-known institutes.

The entire Polish wing of my family was slaughtered by the Nazis. I myself have experience with terrorism. I'm not in any way anti-Israeli but I very much disagree with everything they are doing right now.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but please at least address my actual comments and don't assume the worst about me.

You clearly didn't read my post.

I didn't assume anything about you and didn't label you anti-semitic or BNP.

I pointed out that your "academic research" background doesn't mean your opinions are neutral or even factual.