to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

"The concern with countries like Iran having nuclear capability is that there is less certainty they would not actually use nuclear weapons, and unlike Israel they sponsor a variety of terrorist groups in different countries who might benefit from that capability."

Iran hasn't bombed a country to the brink of destruction. Israel has. So why would Israel be less likely to use them?

Terrorist groups? Well ones person terrorist is another persons freedom fighter. Hamas is a democratically elected government.

The only people who ever used nuclear weapons in anger are the Americans yet these are the same people who fund Israel, that tells me something. No-one stopped America and the U.K from dropping tens of thousands of cluster bombs on civilian villages in Afghanistan and the use of napalm on civilians, I often wonder if the same rule makers have taken a look at their own war crimes before pointing the finger at a load of totally obsolete and inaccurate rockets launched from a third world country.

Babbas, I agree that the worst part of what Israel is doing is not only causing so much humanitarian catastrophe but interfering with attempts to alleviate it.

Imagine watching your loved ones die of treatable conditions because you were not allowed to take them to a hospital that could treat them, just because you are Palestinian.

There is no military necessity to deny humanitarian aid to Gaza -- or rather, to the extent there is, it's hugely disproportionate.

It's collective punishment and it's abhorrent. Imagine if the UK had done that to Northern Ireland in response to the IRA terrorist attacks.

Nailak, I actually agree with you -- I don't think Iran is any more likely than Israel to use a nuke, and the idea they would send one over to Hamas is laughable. I was just putting forward the arguments that people tend to use.

Bureni, of course they don't think about it. Look at who gets dragged in for war crimes trials -- Charles Taylor, a Congolese warlord, Serbian paramilitaries. Where's George Bush? Henry Kissinger? Well-paid retirement.

One of my biggest disappointments in Obama is that he did not authorise a thorough review of US war crimes under Bush, after he was elected. I know he would never send Bush to the Hague but I think we really need to know about all the horrible things that the US did during that era. (I'm American btw.)

dreamingbohemian, the Ira terrorist threat came from ROI not Northern Irealnd, any response should have been carried out in ROI not N.I and taken against the aggressors not the victims.

Sorry, typing too fast... I think you take my point though? It's possible for a country to deal with terrorism and not resort to collective punishment on the scale of Gaza.

Bureni - not true. There was some cross-border movement and secret training camps, but by and large, the IRA were based in N.I and the vast majority in ROI did not support them in any way.

Goth , almost all Irish REPUBLICAIN terrrorists came from the republic and still do, mainly funded by a fake charity based in Boston US called Noraid who also directed the terrorists to their gun suppliers in Lybia. I am aware that the vast majority of people in ROI did not support their activities but the recent increase in the Sinn Fein/IRA vote now shows otherwise in ROI.

Nailak - in your first post you have articulated what I have been trying to say throughout this thread.

"Yes but why are Hamas firing rockets? Their country has disappeared, the food they are allowed to eat, the medication they receive is controlled by the Israeli govt, their trees used for business are ripped down to build more buildings and extend Israel's geographical presence etc. Their right to self governance has been ripped away. 1300 civilians dead in 2008 in Gaza. That included the use of yellow phosphorus which is illegal on an international scale. Oh and Israel is a country. Not a religion. Why can't people enter into a civilised discussion without crying anti semitism? It's nothing to do with anti semitism for the most part (of course there will always be some morons who will use it), it's to do with a government being held accountable for their (sometimes illegal) actions.

I know this will be heated so apologies in advance if people are offended by my view, but it's just the way I see things".

THIS

Dreamingbohemian I agree with you. The collective punishment, the restrictions on the basics of life reaching those that need it (food water medicines dignity) are so terrible for me to comprehend. And almost as bad as the civilian bombings. I would feel the exact same if Israel was the weaker party here being denied aid and basic human right so I do not feel this is an anti-Semitic sentiment. If an army of 10,000 armed with weapons and air power quashes an army of 5 with no weapons then for me there is only one aggressor. Israel demands security and acceptance. But until it finds it within itself to allow Palestine these qualities it will never be secure or accepted. I feel for all those innocent people caught up in this. on both sides.

So how would you fix it? What is your solution?

Begonia, perhaps the UN and the Yanks could make as much money from disarming their 51st state as they did arming them in the first place, what do you think?

Think that answers nothing, is that the best you can do when you have such strong views and opinions.

Disarming would certainly help, what would you suggest be done to stop these nutters killing each other?

The solution is the road map, two states, 1967 borders with land swaps, etc. That is the framework everyone has been working with for 20 years now and which has the only credibility across a broad range of actors.

The problem is getting those involved to have the political will to actually implement it. I don't see that happening anytime soon and so I think the conflict will go on and on.

I blame both sides for the breakdown in the peace process btw.

Like crescentmoon, said above, I'd like a one state solution. A state that is neither Jewish or Muslim. But demographics mean that it would not be Israeli dominated and I think that wouldn't do for some, as they don't want peace, they just want power.

As for a two state solution.

I think:

Israel to return to 1967 borders.

Demolish the illegal settlements. Give the Golan back to Syria (when Syria get a new govt).

If they are not willing to accept Palestinian right of return, they must pay reparations.

Equal access to water.

Demilitarisation of checkpoints. No more blockades. Ever.

As part of the reparations, new connections between West Bank and Gaza to be built.

Palestinian state to have an offical army. All other militias to be disarmed. No more rocket attacks.

There are 3 players here not 2, the Yanks have a vested interest in their lovely little missile base called Israel, there is not a chance that Israel would last more then a few hours on its own without American money and equipment. This is not a two sided story as Israel makes out, the Yanks are calling the shots on this one as they have always done which was clearly demonstrated when Israel showed its surgical strikes on targets yesterday on the BBC and world news using American satellite guided missiles, who is actually fighting who here?

Gothanngeddes

Will the Arab states which expelled their Jewish populations after 1948 and appropriated all their property and businesses also have to pay them reparations as part of this comprehensive peace deal which somehow also includes Syria?

Bureni

The UN hasn't armed anyone, what are you talking about?

Nalaik

Umm, actually Iran bombed the shit out of Iraq during the Iran Iraq war. The idea of a nuclear Iran terrifies me. Their stated desire is the annihilation of Israel. Considering that for many Israelis, attempted annihilation is not an empty threat, it's no wonder people are concerned.

Hamas is indeed democratically elected, so were the nazis. The fact that the gazans elected a vicious bunch of thugs to lead them says a lot about the state of Palestinian society.

I think perhaps it's time for the Palestinians to stop figuring out how to 'fight back' and instead how to achieve peace. It's the fighting back which has got them into their current plight. They fought back many times and each time they lost and made their situation worse. I think it's time they came to terms with reality.

Hahahaha!

Israel elected Sharon the Butcher and you want to lecture the Palestinians on the state of their society. A senior Israeli politician is on record as wanting to "put the Gazans on a diet" and you see fit to lecture others.

In answer to your question, since the Jews were expelled as a result of the State of Israel being formed, then Israel can compensate them too. And you can give back any money you've made from the Golan over the years.

LOL, the UN (USA) has armed them all and gave them the excuse to exercise the well worn out "war on terror" excuse or as we know it it cheap route to oil and minerals excuse, welcome to the real world without A4 paper and biased pens and cheap american hotdogs.

Elaine Iran has nothing to so with the current issue.

And also,the only reason you are "terrified" of Iran having nuclear weapons is because of US funded propaganda. "Brown people" having the same technology as the West is clearly terrifying. What utter bollocks

Iran has as much right to that nuclear technology as other nation.

Also,why is Palestine's "realify" accepting their land being stolen and their homes destroyed Elaine ?

C'mon now,pro Israel or not,in terms of stealing land Israel has behaved terribly badly. They are the epitome of the bullied becoming the bully.

*reality