to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Wait til Israel start bombing Iran which is almost inevitable.

Then the shit will really hit the fan.

Poppy, you assumed I was bringing up my research background to claim impartiality (oh you know like how the BNP does ) when I think it was pretty obvious that I was directly responding to comments (including by you) that I should 'learn something about it'.

I have never claimed to be impartial or neutral. I am only saying that I'm not ignorant.

You also assumed I was the one who started the comparisons you object to, and earlier you said you were disgusted that I did not acknowledge Palestinian war crimes, when in fact I did.

As I said, I know we will disagree, but I think you are reading the worst into my posts tbh.

dreaming, that NYT article is fascinating and scary. So Israel has taken out someone who could have delivered a long-lasting ceasefire...

I attribute all the responsibility for its air strikes restrictions and political actions with the state of Israel. This does not make me anti Semitic. Just as blaming Hamas for the attacks against innocent Israeli civilians does not make me anti Islamic. This is not a race issue for me. It's an issue of deplorable and disproportionate use of force, and over looked war crimes which the OP touched upon.

edam -- yes it's really interesting to think about how a permanent ceasefire might have changed the whole equation. Really a potential game-changer.

But this is the problem with having political leaders whose support depends on the politics of fear. They aren't acting in the best interests of the country but of themselves. (And yes I think this is true of both sides.)

dreaming that article is really good,thanks for sharing.

There have always been Jews in Arabia. Funnily enough it was not the Muslims or Arabs who persecuted them, and committed atrocities against them. When the Christians reconqueres Spain the Jews left with the Muslims. The Arabs did not have an issue with Jewish people living in their lands. Why do you think Jewish people started immigrating there? Because they felt it was safer?

And I thought Arabs were Semites too?

I don't think being against the actions of a state makes you racist? I don't understand why racism against Jewish people has a special word either?

So even if we get over that, because Israel has a right to exist, does it have a right to the blockade, prevention of aid, right to prevent medical treatment, right to burn olive trees and sink fishing boats, right to prevent construction materials for rebuilding, right to use white phosphorus in built up areas?

Let's stop and consider the last one. We are defending the use of WHITE PHOSPHORUS in built up areas and CLUSTER BOMBS in the middle of a city, but when Palestinians fire a few rockets back that is not ok?

"when I think it was pretty obvious that I was directly responding to comments (including by you) that I should 'learn something about it'. "

I have never said this, I think you're confusing me with someone else.

You're right, we will disagree.

Dreaming
I said you should learning something about it. If you worked at a holocaust research centre you would know that in no way is what happens in gaza any way reminiscent of the holocaust and certainly not within the realm of plausibility.

nalaik
You're quite right that the Arabs lived peacefully with Jews for much of history, even though the Koran is quite inciteful against Jews. At the end of the day, neither Arabs nor Muslims persecuted Jews the way Europeans did whether through crusades, pogroms or the holocaust. But it still doesn't excuse Arab counties then expelling all their Jewish populations after Israel was created and the anti Jewish hatred and sentiments since then.

No one has said that Israel has carte Blanche to do as it wishes. Many Israelis don't support the actions of their government and there are plenty of demonstrations in Israel against what is happening in gaza (unfortunately, you don't see similar demonstrations in gaza, any israeli is fair game, they are only constrained in how many they murder by their own technical abilities!).

But as poppy has pointed out, there is a demonization and villification of Israel, lack of recognition of the Palestinian role in all of this and a pretty basic questioning of Israel's right to exist. I see this as being based in anti semitism and not legitimate criticism of Israel.

why is questioning a states right to exist mean you are racist against the people of a certain religion?

I mean if i questioned Somalias right to exist I wouldnt be racist against Muslims would I?

How many Israelis have rockets from Gaza killed? How many Palestinians has Israels actions killed, directly and indirectly?

What is the Palestinian role in all of this?

Why are you blaming Palestine for the actions of other Arab countries? the countries which up until now have kept borders closed, blocked the tunnels which get food through to israel, not supported Palestine miltarily etc?

Well I don't know how many times I can say that I'm not comparing Gaza to the Holocaust. If my original post did not make that clear enough, I think the several explanations I've given since then have. But I appreciate that perhaps my distinctions are still too narrow and I do apologise for any offence, will leave it at that.

Nailak - do you have any criticism for Palestinians and their leaders or are they totally blameless and innocent.

I don't see Palestinians doing anything except retaliate in the face of oppression and severe hardship that makes normal day to day living hard.

This is a country without an army, without an airforce, without a navy, a country which is not even recognised as a nation state, it has no tanks so defends itself with rockets and stones.

i mean if palestine was a state then wouldnt the military branch of hamas just be the military?

I recommend everyone reads the New York Times article dreaming linked to that explains that Israel just assassinated the Palestinian leader who was negotiating a ceasefire. Written by an Israeli negotiator.

Clearly the Israeli government does not want peace. Or someone within the government who has the power to start another war does not want peace.

I will read it, it's a very interesting development if true. Wonder what the Israeli people think about it, especially with elections coming up. If so, hope it backfires on Netanyahu.

Nailak - so you do see the Palestinians as being totally innocent. Can understand this viewpoint if you are personally involved, say Palestinian or have family or connections there. Can't understand it you are in a neutral position with no connections.

why not? plenty of people hold this position.

Can you explain to me what of that which I said in my last post is incorrect? and why you feel that retaliation is not allowed by Palestine?

I think Crescent would agree with me. I don't think she has any family connections there either.

What I would add is my mum and dad are South African, my dad was imprisoned and tortured for passing messages for the banned ANC, and deemed a terrorist. My mum was a teacher who saw her students killed while on protest march by an oppressive regime. While 9 months pregnant with me my mum marched in the demo at Trafalgar square in 1984. Apartheid is apartheid, Oppression is oppression. Desmond Tutu agrees.

I understand why they retaliate, I just think their idea of retaliation is getting them nowhere in the long run and just making things worse for the ordinary people as the Israelis then become more entrenched and feel justified with their own 'retaliation'. So you don't see that much of the Israeli's actions can also be classed as 'retaliation' but it happens that they are able to retaliate in a bigger way?

No I can't understand how someone who hasn't got personal involvement can't see that both sides have been at fault. I can't just point the finger at one country and that's what makes it so complicated.

What does innocent mean anyway? and which Palestinians are you talking about?

There is only a minority of Palestinians who have actually committed armed violence, yet the entire Palestinian nation is being punished.

Even if you do think the Palestinian leadership and militant groups are in the wrong, there is a much larger civilian population that is innocent. Even if some of them do hate Israel or wish it wouldn't exist -- that is not actually a crime, and unless they actually do something to act upon it, they shouldn't be targeted.

That is the whole point of distinction in international law -- you are only supposed to target people who are actual military threats.

"I recommend everyone reads the New York Times article dreaming linked to that explains that Israel just assassinated the Palestinian leader who was negotiating a ceasefire. Written by an Israeli negotiator."

He's a Peace Activist working for a think tank. He's also Israeli and he is involved in alleged unofficial negotiations, so I suppose you could call him an Israeli negotiator.

He wasn't even in direct contact with Ahmed Jabari and there's absolutely no proof that he was interested/open to the agreement or that indeed he would sign it.

Plenty of "alleged" and "claimed" there.

sigh

is Desmond Tutu God or something. What does he have to do with this?

"If so, hope it backfires on Netanyahu."

I agree Begonia

I was demonstrating that other people who have no direct involvement believe that the Palestinian people are innocent.

What would you do if you were a Palestinian, say stop me getting to a hospital, burn my livelihood, restrict my food, don't let me rebuild, dont let aid in, but I won't fight back?

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/29/comment

But nailak, no one questions Somalias right to exist, or belgiums, or Kuwait or Nigeria, or South Africa yet they are all artificial states.

What would you like to see happen next?