to leave DS to cry?

[CreamOfTomatoSoup]

He is 6 months and likes boob before sleep. He won't have a bottle, even though he will happily take one in the day, so I know he is comfort sucking.

So how old do babies have to be to learn from CC? I don't really want to do it but can't see any other way around this conundrum. He doesn't have a dummy and I'd rather not introduce one now.

AIBU/Cruel?

SirBoob - It is very unusual for 18 month old toddlers to be breastfed to sleep. I am talking about the UK in particular and Western Europe in general, because we all define "normal" or "usual" within regions familiar to us, not places on the other side of the planet, remote corner of a jungle or a village up in a mountain somewhere in China.

Not that I judge. I don't. A practice some of you might like to emulate.

pointy - I can't see a link to a study. All I see is a link to an article talking about a study, which says something like babies are stressed during bedtime even if they don't cry.

What seems to be the incontrovertible evidence that sleep training causes lasting damage to children? That it teaches them help will never come in their hour of need?

You sleep trained your DD when she was 11 months. It took 2 days after which she was sleeping 7 to 6.

I sleep trained my DD when she was 4 months. It took 2 days after which she was sleeping 8 to 7.

HOW exactly are you so sure that your DD was ready and mine wasn't? That your DD wasn't damaged but mine is?

There seems to be a lt of judging on this thread, you don't know everyone's circumstances. There are times when I have left ds 9 months cry to sleep for a few mins, when nothing else will do, tried rocking, changing nappy, milk etc. it's nt doom and gloom and des not happen on a regular basis

Sometimes ds is so ver tired and fighting sleep tht I put him in his cot fr 5 mind crying,with lullaby music on,eventually he falls to sleep. Being held seems nt to do the trick

cote I knew she was ready because she refused the breast when the milk let down. And when I say I sleep-trained - I use pick up/put down and there was no crying involved. At all. The first night I had to pick her up 40+ times before she settled, but I did not allow her to cry. The second night it was 5-6 times, the third night she slept through. No stress involved for anyone.

You're nitpicking about the study, btw. I mean, are you saying that because I linked to the article the study doesn't exist? Then here's an abstract - you'll forgive me for not shelling out 30-odd dollars to prove I'm not lying. And as I've said, there is a lot of research like this - the abstracts are easy to find.

I'm obviously not saying that your DD is damaged - research is about statistics after all. Your DD may well be absolutely fine. But the literature suggests that compared to a group of babies whose cortisol levels are not raised by being left to cry, a similar group of babies who are left to cry is likely to have a higher incidence of mental illness in later life. It's a risk I've chosen not to take - to each their own.

piglet a few minutes with lullaby music would be fine with me. But we're getting O/T - the OP doesn't appear to be experiencing major sleep deprivation she just finds feeding her 6mo to sleep 'a drag'. Many of us on this thread have pointed out that he's still very young and that feeding to sleep is natural for him.

And really, don't be a parent if you can't handle the tiresome bits... Yes, I know that's judgey.

She didn't say feeding the baby was a drag. She said being the only person who can put him to bed us a drag as he dosent seem hungry and is comfort sucking.

That's what I read.

Pointy - I didn't think you were lying. It is just that it helps to look at the actual study (or its abstract - thanks for providing it) rather than an article about it.

What I see from the abstract is that they have measured cortisol levels for only five days, during and immediately after a sleep training program and the study discusses only "the determinants and implications of maternal?infant physiological synchrony in early childhood", not any harm caused by sleep training.

I am not "nitpicking", only looking at what this study doesn't say. It doesn't say babies are affected in the long term by sleep training. And that is because:

• Babies are tested for only a couple of days, not over long periods of time
• There is no control groups of babies who (1) sleep through the night but were never sleep trained, and (2) wake up several times a night, to see where their cortisol levels are in comparison to babies who have been sleep trained
• There is no long term psychological studies that determine relative mental profiles of sleep trained children vs those who haven't been sleep trained.

All this study seems to have looked at is synchrony/asynchrony of mother & baby.

"literature suggests that compared to a group of babies whose cortisol levels are not raised by being left to cry, a similar group of babies who are left to cry is likely to have a higher incidence of mental illness in later life"

Are we back to the Romanian orphanages? If you know of any other study (not "literature"), I'd love to hear about it.

We did CC at 7 months as DS was taking longer and longer to go to sleep and being disabled I couldn't hold him in my arms for that long. The idea of CC was a lot worse than the reality (we found). It was interesting to hear how quickly DS's cries turned from upset to pissed off (in about 3 mins). First night he cried for 20 mins with us going in at regular intervals, second night it was 5 mins and third night it was 3 mins. He is now 2.5 and goes to bed without a fuss (unless ill).
CC is not for everyone but it worked for us.

Cruel. Very.

Cote, without outing myself utterly, I know A Lot about the neuroscience behind CC, etc. There has never been research done that doesn't show it's bad for the child.

And you don't need to be an expert to be able to see that not going to a distressed child teaches it to feel like it can't trust comfort to come when they need it. All the things you list about them learning are far more sophisticated than children of a suitable age for sleep training are capable of. It's of the same school of thought that children manipulate by crying, when such concepts are beyond them.

The fact that it's not common in the UK to Bf children to sleep over a year old is a sad; something that we ought to view as a shame, not as odd.

I would like to say that how do you know when they need the comfort

so you want to sleep train and therefore because they have been fed, changed and warm enough they obviously dont need anything else and they are just 'trying it on'

what bollocks

I think the thing is that for a small baby, wants are the same as needs. They aren't 'greedy' or 'manipulative' or worse still 'naughty' when they are crying.

I wholeheartedly agree with you oxford
I cannot articulate it properly myself

I dunno - "what bollocks" summed it up perfectly for me

I am not going to get into the argument so much, I know the majority of MN doesn't like CC in general...

If you look into advice for controlled crying, it is only advised after 6 months. I did it a bit earlier with my DD who has just turned 6 months. The important thing to remember is you don't just leave them for hours and hours crying. That is barbaric. But to do a bedtime routine, put them in the cot and leave them for around 10 mins, go back in, try and settle them (preferably without picking them up) and then leave them another 10 minutes and so on. It only took a couple of days for my DD to begin to settle. If you don't think its a nice thing to do, or you can't bear to leave them to cry - don't do it. I could distinguish cries of proper distress with those whingy cries of a baby wanting someone to settle them, but was in fact very tired.

I went with CC because it worked with my eldest DD (who has turned into an emotionally secure 6 year old), I work and don't have the luxury to spend endless amounts of time with her settling on me, and I also value my sleep and am awful to be around when sleep deprived (selfish, so shoot me).

There is a lot of ground between feeding to sleep and leaving baby to cry, OP. I agree with whoever said do what feels right to you. If you don't want to feed to sleep, don't. And if you don't want to leave baby to cry, don't. There are MANY things you can do to stop feeding to sleep if it is what you want to do (although don't feel pressured by your mum or anyone else).

-The Baby Whisperer techniques of shh/pat and pick up/put down (i.e. allowing baby to cry but being there to comfort)
-The Pantley Pull Off from No Cry Sleep Solution (as mentioned upthread)
-Trying a dummy after putting baby down awake
-Put a comforter between you for a few days while feeding then start giving it to baby when you put him down
-Music/singing/white noises.

Personally, I didn't want to do CC or CIO, but DD has reflux so feeding to sleep resulted in discomfort, so we went with most of the above at one point or another, along with letting her fall asleep on me, rocking etc. The dummy was what I think did it in the end, but why not try a few things and see what works for you?

(Incidentally, now DD is on solids her reflux has cleared up and I am mostly back to feeding her to sleep in the evenings, but not for naps.)

If you say you know it's comfort sucking why not just offer a dummy??? If your baby does take it then everyone is happy !!

You can always give the dummy away to the dummy fairy in a year or so. They really aren't the devils work! I couldn't have coped without giving mine dummies and trust me it hasn't stopped them chatting away or ruined their teeth !

There is also evidence that dummies helpto reduce Sids. Although no one knows quite why this is.

All evidence points to letting a child cry needlessly being harmful to them not only emotionally but neurologically

My father in law was left to cry for hours, almost from the point of birth. He was neglected in many ways during his formative years, and he is a loving, caring parent and grandparent who apart from no longer being in contact with his own poisonous parents has no ill effects. Calling Anti Bullshit!

mmmerangue and my DH's stepbrother was left to cry for hours at the bottom of the garden by his Mother, but was otherwise loved and well cared for. He has ADHD, attachment disorders, has been in and out of prison during his adult life, is pretty much unemployable and has fathered a number of children to different women, in part as he can't form or maintain a proper relationship. Aged 35 he clings to his Mother and desperately seeks her attention and approval like you wouldn't believe. Yet his Mother would say (and has said) that the crying did him no harm.

However an anecdote isn't evidence.

CC is a choice, I wouldn't say anyone who disagrees with it should change their views. That only comes from the other side of the arguement, funnily enough.

And I wasn't trying to use it to say you should CC as I don't believe leaving your child for 5 minutes to see if they settle themselves is neglect. I was just saying that I don't believe the statement made about 'all evidence'. You're right my anecdote isn't evidence it was probably a stupid thing to bring up.

I agree with katy though.

TBH I think this thread has gone far removed from helping the OPs original question and she hasn't appeared for a few days so we should probably all just leave it.

I did CC at 5 months (severe PND plus psychotic episodes mean that sleep is very important to me).

I don't regret it for a moment. It took about 4 days, checking every 3,5,7 and 10 minutes. Each check involved a cuddle, dummy/teddy replacement, a soothing lullaby and a kiss. He never cried for more than 15 minutes, and was usually asleep by the 5 minute check. If he was wailing and screaming I would go in straight away, but if he was just crying and grizzling I'd wait. I did it for both naps and bedtime.

I do still feed him to sleep occasionally now (6.5 months), and also rock and sing him to sleep at times. I just think the CC helped him realise that when it's bedtime that's it. He also has just started sleeping right from 7pm till 7am. It's fab!