To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

Is it your belief that in truly dire fundamentalist places like Saudi Arabia, money is going to protect you if you act/talk against Islam?

The whole philosophy of many in Islam seems to be to project the bad onto others, starting with women and ending up with the whole of the west (aka the great satan).

I think it is patronising to treat immigrant people who mutilate others, kill others, etc., as somehow different from native mutilators and killers. Yes use the fact that religion sponsors those crimes or supports them or keeps its mouth firmly shut about them, but only to flag potential trouble.

Islam can and does change. The Bible has changed immensely, through translation and through the omission and retention of certain books by different branches of Christianity beginning in the middle ages. The RC version is longer than any protestant version. Islam is a religion that undergoes constant change just as Christianity has. It is a loosely organised religion, and change comes from varying interpretations of hadith, etc. It can also come as a result of money poured out of the coffers of the SA government to fund change through foundation of mosques, training of fundamentalist scholars.

Cote d'Azur, what country were you born in?

no

only women i have known to wear a hijab was my ex's mother and muslim women i know here who have choosed to wear one. only time i wore a scarf and the women in my ex's family was at a funeral gathering. my cousins never wear a scarf but again would at a funeral or if they went to mosque

and no one had objections to me not being a muslim though it caused inner conflict for my ex they jsut all felt one day i would see the right way, no pressure was ever put on me to convert or to fast in ramadam when i did i was told off as it was too longer a day for me to go without food havign never fasted before :) i read the koran because i wanted to so i had an understanding of the religion

Mathanxiety, I honestly don't know why you keep banging on about SA somehow seeming to equate with Islam. Yes the Saudi's are rich. Yes the Wahabi's are extremist at best, fundamentalist at worst but they make up a VERY SMALL FRACTION of muslims around the world. The largest Muslim country is Malaysia. Why have there not been Malaysian terrorists burning the West? The issue of honour killings does NOT solely belong to Muslims. It belongs to Christians, Sikhs and Hindus too. You are doing every non-muslim woman who has been killed as a result of an 'honour' killing a disservice by claiming it is not a cultural problem.

islam can not change the koran can not change it is written in what is now called classical arabic and has not changed. many muslims know the koran off by heart what does change and what scholars argue about is the interpretation and the messages from the hadiths

maybe Malaysian muslim terrorists have not attacked the west because they are too busy with target closer to home as plenty of churchs and temples in malasia have been targeted in recent years.
Or do we only care about western attacks?

Quran cannot change but Muslims can. Just like Christians did even though the Bible didn't.

Because of money, Pinkoyster. No-one can compete against the billions SA has spent and is spending promoting fundamentalism and promoting it very successfully. By 1746 the House of Saud, fueled by the fervour of Wahhabism, had declared jihad on all neighbouring Muslim groups that refused to accept its brand of Islam and that approach persists today. Look at the number of veiled women as an indication of Wahhabi success. It costs X amount of money to produce Y number of veiled women in the west and elsewhere. Look at the destruction of Sufi shrines and continuous physical pressure and intimidation of Sufis in the M East, N Africa and South Asia as an indication of the way things are going. Wahhabism is aggressive and has bottomless financial resources. You may believe that Wahhabism is not Islam and Islam is not Wahhabism but if the Wahhabis/salafis get their way you will think otherwise, because their aim is the elimination of all other trains of Islamic thought and all other Muslim traditions. A great pity that so many Muslims refuse to acknowledge this despite evidence from all over the world of the way the wind is blowing.

It is precisely the interpretation that I am talking about, Freudian. I did not claim the Koran had changed. Islam can and does change. It is in a constant state of change.

The Bible did in fact change.

cantspel,yes and several mosques have also been targeted. There is civil unrest (much like there is in Thailand, a non-muslim country). Apart from this unrest, do they have honour killings? No. Do they breed international terrorists to kill thousands of innocent civilians abroad? No. Does this mean they are peaceful and perfect in every way? Of course not. My point was that SA, regardless of how rich they are do not OWN Islam. It is a religion which has amongst it's followers good and bad. Like every religion. I'm a lapsed Catholic of Irish origin, and remember how hard it was for my parents in the 80's and early 90's with their Irish brogue living in England. People seem to forget so easily what it's like to be spat upon (actually happened to my DM), to be looked down upon and ridiculed because of religion and race. My Df (a GP) actually lost of patients after the bombings in Manchester cos he was Irish.

They will have honour killings once the salafis take power. They have not yet been responsible for terrorism abroad. The more salafis gain control the more likely it is that terrorism will be exported.

SA does not yet own Islam, but it is spending billions trying to buy it.

I do like reading what math has to say on this.

"The Bible did in fact change"

It still says "Suffer not a witch to live" and yet you are not witch hunting.

That is what I meant. Christianity changed without the Bible having to change. The same will happen with Islam in the long term, hopefully with less bloodshed.

I don't know mathanxiety, it all sounds a bit conspiracy-theory and sensationalist to me...

Due to the nature of my and DH's work, I work in some notable muslim countries (as well as alongside Muslims in the UK) and they all hate the Saudis/Wahabi's. So even if they are trying to spread an extremist form of Islam, I doubt it will 'take', no matter how much wealth they have.

islam does not change like i said before people progress societies and cultures change but islam is practised by many in the same way as it was 1000 years ago. pray 5 times a day, give alms, go to mecca, declare your faith and fast in ramadan

Wow, quite obtuse Cote.

No what I meant was in the sort of country you grew up in, as an atheist, I was imagining that you had money as the only people I know to have grown in an Islamic country without being 'very' Muslim were very wealthy.

But christianity does not say (especially as it has the synoptic gospels which are all the same but different) that it is the word of God, only the message. Not, obviously, the OT.

Islam seems to have considered this and decided that their book would basically say it is the word of God and cannot be altered.

Even the start of Islam was terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion.

crescentmoon you can put as many draconian laws in place that you want but the simple fact is drinking, drug taking gambling etc are not limited to western society but in a more liberal society women have the protection of the civil law to protect them but in islam they only have a mans interruption of a 2 thousand year old book hence you get women in saudi put to death for being victims of rape or women unable to divorcee violent and abusive men.

How many people do you know who have grown up in a Muslim country, as an atheist, and wealthy? As opposed to how many others you know who have grown up as Muslims in a Muslim country and were not wealthy?

I know many hundreds of wealthy and poor people from Muslim countries, very few of whom are atheists, regardless of financial situation.

There is of course a positive correlation between higher education and lack of religious belief, and of course wealthy people are in general better educated, but this is no different than in Christian countries.

i agree all muslims that i know especially arab muslims hate the Saudi's. The Arab spring uprising was not about people wanting a more rigid islamic regime it was about wanting to be able to not have a governement that is corrupt and dictates how they live and how religious they can or can not be. it is still early days to tell if it has been a sucess but countries that have over thrown their givernments have not over night changed to fundemental islamic states as predicted by some

"Even the start of Islam was terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion"

Like the Crusades, you mean?

Cote, I don't know much about the start of Islam, but the Crusades was not the start of Christianity.