To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

the middle ground is showing an understanding looking at the bigger picture. very complex situations is it not black and white we are right they are wrong all societies have problems, not one group of muslims represent all muslims but reading the many threads on here regarding muslims it is quite obvious many do think that way

we live in a time where technology could help so much in us all understanding and learning more and being more compassionate and understanding but it often seems to have the opposite effect keep telling people they are wrong, backward in their way of thinking and you will just create a bigger divide. Muslim women in Pakistan may not value our way of life they may not see our freedoms as the freedoms they want for themselves or their children. Not all muslim women are down trodden and have no control over their life, far too many women all over the world do not but what women strive for in our society is not the same as what they may strive for in others

I see no need to understand family murders. I am not compassionate towards family murderers. I don't condone it in any way. I do not need greater understanding to condemn it. It is backward and medieval. Muslim women may not value our way of life; I would say with some certainty they don't want to be murdered by family members.

"Not all Muslim women are downtrodden". This is entirely irrelevant to the issue of so-caled honour killings, which are not just a Muslim issue. Many women condone, collude and take part in so-called honour killings, and for that matter take part in or take the lead in acts such as genital mutilation. Does this make a difference? None at all.

It should not be tolerated or understood or condoned or compassioned anywhere; but as this is the only country we have control over, we can at least say it should not be tolerated or understood or compassioned in this one.

It's a religion that allows men to ride roughshod over women. Murder of said women is a predicable outcome.

who has said you need to show compassion to someone who has committed murder it is to the oppression that people suffer in some places and cultures that many of us do not here that keeps this cycle of oppression. it is not only women that suffer from being oppressed. why do you think these women do perform fgm on their daughters as an act of cruelty? the idea behind fgm is terribly cruel and about control over women but that is not why is is necessarily carried out do you think they love their daughters less than we love our own children. the fear that their daughter will not marry, the fear that their family will have no support financially or from their community in the future. maybe some do it to be cruel but the vast majority do not

i have not condoned violence or oppression in any way but i try to understand what drives people to commit such cruelty on others. no changes will be made just by telling people they are cruel and wrong, education and understanding of the culture and oppression some have faced is the only way to make changes. there are programmes to support women who have suffered from fgm and to educate them on the dangers so they do not put their daughters through it, it would not work (and sadly it does not always work) if these women were told they and their culture are wrong, what they value is wrong what needs to be shown is that things can be different and they do not need to fear change

ok but these bans are then upheld in court where a mans testimony is worth more than a womans. there are many rights that men have in islam that have no place in modern britian but a good muslim should see the world has moved on and not just take bits from the koran that suits their needs

islam may have helped womans welfare in the 7th century does it now in modern day britian i do not think so and all religion is used to keep women powerless it always has and always will

I think it's pretty concerning that honour killings, particularly in Pakistan are INCREASING rather than the opposite.

i am saying women benefit more from Islam than men.

Um, have you read the statistics about the gender gap in Islam countries??? Posted above by the OP I believe?

This looks like wilful blindness to me and I can't understand it. I would have thought all the evidence points pretty clearly to the fact that Islam does NOT benefit women.

Yes, Bramshott, it IS concerning that honour killings are increasing; and comparing them to the Western equivalent of banning daughters from dating black men astounds me: there is no realistic comparison here.

How can you say islam benefits women? In Islam

In court your testimony is worth half that of a mans

In the family your inheritance is haft that of your brothers

A muslim woman can only marry a muslim man but he gets a choice.

A woman gets one husband and a man can have upto 4 wifes.

There are separate rules for men and woman to divorce, with the man just having to say the talaq but a woman has to petion a male judge.

How do any of these benefit women?

Crescent moon I agree with you that there is something badly wrong with the permissive culture and progressive theories of the West - but not all the West is bad, just as not all Islam is good.

Despite all the relentless partying etc. I am not at all surprised to read that British children are the most depressed in the developed world and that young people report to psychologists feelings of deep emptiness. Of course they are, they are Godless and lost! Their souls are filled with empty things. When I listen to that stupid archbishop bleating on about political things, with never a single spiritual lesson or instruction to people on how to be better human beings, I just shake my head.

However, I think that Mohammed made a mistake when he seemed to think that if you ban things, they go away. Prohibition does not make things go away, we are inherently sinful and are constantly tempted by the Father of the Lie whispering in our ears and drawing us away from God.

Have you ever read any of the Torah (Old Testament)? The first book is called Genesis, and describes the Creation. In Chapter 3 there is the description of the creation of man (Adam and Eve). Even for non-religious people, as an allegory it describes beautifully the human condition. When Eve is tempted by the serpent, eats of the fruit (of the Tree of Knowledge) and gives it to her husband Adam, the scales instantly fall from their eyes, and they see that they are naked. This means that they are no longer innocent. They have God-like powers to discern between good and evil and can no longer be with God in paradise. We disobey God's laws, because we can. So we have tremendous powers, and a terrible flaw (an inherent selfishness, original sin) which is present in all of us. God does not punish us because he is a merciful loving and all-knowing God, but gives us free will to choose (and live our own consequences). This is personal responsibility, the foundation of Western philosophy.

Jesus differs from Mohammed because he tells us to shine the light of truth on our sinfulness (awareness), and repent - by doing so, being forgiven, and reborn in God's reflection. This is very similar to the therapeutic situation of modern psychology - to go into the shadows of our denied unconscious.

Whoever told that story might not have been able to read, they might have thought it whilst they were throwing stones at their goats, but they were genius. Or, it could be the word of God! Either way, the dilemma of what it is to be human, is right there.

It's not in the name of religion though. Whatever religion a murdered of their own child is, is irrelevant. In some parts of the world it happens - going far back into history pre-current religion.

Women have had as much blood on their hands as men in some of the reported cases.

I can't get my head around how someone can think that murdering their own child (someone they are supposed to protect and love) is less of a 'shame' than their teenager wearing make-up (or whatever their 'crime' that made them forfeit their life). It needs to be more a parent harming a child is the biggest 'shame' anyone can bring about.

that bans alcohol,

I dont think the answer is to ban alcohol just because some men and even some women get violent when drunk. What about the rights of the majority who drink responsibly do they not count?
that bans gambling,

Having the odd flutter never hurt anyone so again why ban something that the majority who take part do so responsibly?
that bans drug taking,

You can ban drugs as much as you like but people still take them including in muslim countries
that bans adultery,

This is a matter for the individuals and not laws but as long as it involves consenting adults then it is the people involved business.

that bans sex outside of marriage,

It is not only men who enjoy sex and why should anyone who wants to remain unmarried remain celibate?

that bans pornography,

again a matter for the individual. I am in the camp that as long as it is consenting adults it has nothing to do with me.

that bans female infanticide specifically,

I dont think their is a religion in the world that encourages this and would probably come under the cultural heading used so much when nasty islamic practices are mentioned.

that bans abandonment of children and family:

Again i name a religion that practices these.

I want civil laws that can be subject to change by the majority not rules written 2 thousand years ago that are unable to move with the times.
But all this has side tracked from the thread and doesn't shed any light on why in the 21st century these so called honor killings are still so wide spread.

Lets just stop using the phrase 'honour killing'. It is murder and in no way honourable

How about the lack of legal and civil rights for women in Saudi Arabia, CrescentMoon? There is ample evidence that this is because of the Wahhabi influence over the regime.

The difference between western cultures (where there are undoubtedly problems for women) and those in the thrall of Islam is that women at least have redress to the justice system in the west. You can forget about that if you have the misfortune to live elsewhere.

And you cannot say 'Islam bans' x or y or z. Islam is not a centrally organised religion. What goes for different Muslims is what the local Imam says should go, or whatever is the opinion of the one you have decided speaks for you. Different sects battle it out (Shi'ite and Sunni, Salafi and Sufi for instance). If one sect chooses to focus on policing the clothing and virtue of women, stoning rape victims, etc., while turning a blind eye to the Las Vegas shenanigans of the wealthy men, or what they do to their unfortunate Filipina house servants, then sorry ladies, that is life as a Muslim as far as you are concerned and to object is to bring shame on your family and to risk the consequences of being considered a not very good Muslim (which are considerable consequences right here and now).

'as for mathanxiety i feel that you are rooting for the minority wahhabi sect to triumph and take over Islam because it fits your idea of how muslims are.'

That is quite funny in its own very bass ackward way.
If you don't believe me that Wahhabism means business then maybe you should look at the news more.

I disagree that no change can come about by telling people they are cruel and wrong. If that were the case then why would the CPS bother prosecuting parents who kill their daughters?

Change can come about by telling people they are not pious enough. Change can come about by telling women that failure to veil will result in rape, in bring shame on families, in being considered less that good Muslims. Why not the other way round? Change will come about in France as a result of legislation passed against the full veil.

The only way change will not come about is if this sort of conversation does not happen. It is not a shame to see it happen. It is a very necessary conversation.

Surely one has to look inward at the very roots and texts of Islam and it's short history to discover why women are so truly oppressed and treated terribly.

Even the whole hijab (more and more often worn by very young girls) is a sign of men being above women, as obviously a woman is such an evil temptress and a man cannot help himself.

Until Islam looks inward for the causes of extremism and sexism , it will not heal or change.

CrescentMoon

that bans alcohol, - how dull

that bans gambling, - not a gambler but I seem to recall Knightsbridge casinos heaving with Saudis

that bans drug taking, - what even aspirin?? I am not a drug taker

that bans adultery, - banned by all monotheistic religions

that bans sex outside of marriage, - banned by all monotheistic religions

that bans pornography, - define pornography

that bans female infanticide specifically, - we just have Thou Salt Not Kill, it works for us

that bans abandonment of children and family: - banned by all monotheistic religions

What you have is a belief system that defines every aspect of your life. It also imposes its will on unbelievers when the numbers are right.

I and my family and friends manage to live full, happy and honourable lives within a framework of freedom to choose. I would not choose to live in a cage.

the CPS prosecute those that break the law does it stop people breaking the law no

i am not suggesting that we ignore laws and those that break the law should not be prosecuted but to bring about change from people deep rooted fears which many of their beliefs are based on (as in fgm) we have to get people to lose their fears. how can i or you tell them don't worry your daughter will still find a husband you will be financially ok and your family will be accepted when they come from a society where that is simply not true. If you can change people this way christianity (or our version) and the british way would be the way of living in many more countries as this is what we have constantly tried to do.

Islam can not change the same as the bible cannot be changed but that does not mean people have not progressed and changed their way of life as Christians have. Islam was very progressive for women. not all muslims want change or to live a more western life they want to be able to practise to a level that is comfortable to them sadly many live under regimes that dictate to them how they should live, ones that the west are quite happy to keep in place while they are supplying us cheap oil

my ex was muslim all the women apart from his mother were highly educated, all had degrees, all chose their husbands, all had careers and all had their own voice. the only woman who was not was his mother who happened was french. For them they could not understand why i lived alone (before i married) why i travelled alone to them it was totally alien to us it is a sign of freedom though problems do arise when someone wants to step out and do something different it was the same here when our grandparents were youg. i have cousins that are muslim the oppression they have to deal with is the expectations of what is put on asian women in their culture and this is in a predominantly buddhist country and most of my family are christian and buddhist but all of us have the same expectations put on us regardless of religion

And FReud did they adhere to protecting their husbands from sin, by covering?

Perhaps you were well off Cote?