To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

As has been mentioned many times (on this thread and in general), this is not about Islam, but it is a problem that is endemic to all cultures that still 'live in the past'.

I have been to many countries where Islam was either the majority religion or was a 'significant minority'. In all of them the way the Koran was interpreted directly related to whether it was Europe, Asia or Africa. The Koran as with the Bible was interpreted according to the Zeitgeist.

My Muslim Moroccan & Kosovar friends are just as shocked by these occurrences as us. Hindu and Buddhist acquaintances I've known in India......might not be?? It's all about the parent culture.

The crusades had nothing to do with the start of christanity. They were a series of religious wars to free Jerusalem from Muslim rule after the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks.

cantspel - re "in islam they only have a mans interruption of a 2 thousand year old book"

You meant "interpretation" and "1400" year old book, I assume.

"hence you get women in saudi put to death for being victims of rape or women unable to divorcee violent and abusive men"

You get that in Saudi Arabia because they are a bizarro fascist cult. If you knew anything at all about Islam, you would know that is not the practice of Muslim countries in general. You might even know that even in Mohammad's time, 1400 years ago, Islam gave women the right to divorce their husbands. Not just when the husband is violent and abusive, but also when she just feels like it.

As others have said, SA's Wahhabism isn't Islam. It is a fundamentalist fringe sect abhorred by the majority of Muslims worldwide. Some people think SA represents Islam because all they know on these subjects are sensationalist headlines from the likes of Daily Fail.

I was pointing out that "terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion" applied to Christianity as well, as evidenced by the Crusades. I'm aware that this wasn't at the beginning of Christianity.

Urrgh! Where to start.

Saudi Arabia is not all of the Islamic world. Whahabism remains a small sect.

Also, a country with lots of Muslims in it does not equal a country ruled by Islam.

Syria had/has a secular govt and they have brutally oppressed the people throughout their rule.

The big problem is that people assume any problems a Muslim has is because they are Muslim. Politics, culture, economics, education all get ignored and forgotten.

I'm not having that India is some shining beacon for women's rights. This is a country where girls are murdered in vast numbers before they are even born, where widows are ostracised, families ruined due to dowry demands and "eve teasing" is endemic.

Also, Muslims, clerical and non have repeatedly spoken out against domestic violence.

There are also orgs like Southall Black Sisters, Karma Nirvana, WISE Muslim women... google "Muslim women domestic violence" and you will find a lot of work that is happening to combat this.

But hardly anyone on these sorts of threads ever does want to google.

GothAnne, Quite!

I was saying that it wasn't Cote.

Goth, what a great post.

I think I'd respect people more if they just came out and specifically stated their anti-muslim rhetoric rather than dressing it up as an AIBU..

why use google when the Daily Mail has so many articles on Islam and what Muslims are really like

From the top of my head Yemen, Pakistan, sudan and Iran all have the death penalty for adultery.

Giving someone the right to divorcee if a man then agrees they can. A woman needs to petition for divorcee and show cause and a man doesn't. Why the difference if women's rights are so important in islam?

But agin this thread has been side tracked. I have no problem if people choose islam in a free society but i do object when it is made out to be something really wonderful for women's rights or islam is forced upon people by the regime they are born under.

The Muslim on Muslim terrorism around the world (seen in every single country where there are Muslims) is Saudi sponsored and has the aim of silencing moderate Muslim voices and putting an end to all interpretations of Islam that do not conform to strict fundamentalism. It makes no difference that SA is just SA, or that Wahhabism is just one sect in just one place (actually it is not in just one place -- it is everywhere). SA has billions to spend on mosques and cleric-training, printing of pamphlets and books and sponsoring of websites.

The places where Islam has been most successful in enforcing its edicts on alcohol are those places where Islam and state go hand in glove -- SA for instance.

'Islam' (a force which does not exist as an organisation) has not been successful. SA and the Morality Police have been. It takes an unholy alliance to make a ban on alcohol successful.

What are you talking about re "Islam hasn't been successful but SA has"?

What is a "successful" religion, in your opinion?

Crescentmoon, again its the culture where the Islam is being interpreted decides on the law they want to interpret. West African Muslims I have known are more than happy to have a drink, as long as its not Friday (although that sometimes slips as well) or they're going to pray under the influence.

East African Muslims, Egyptian and Sudanese keep their drinking hidden (they're more afraid of their friends views than Allah). But drink they still do. My experience in Oman tells me that the hotel bars wouldn't be doing such a brisk trade without Omani patrons either.

Saudi Arabia....different matter as the laws are more vigorously enforced by MAN not god. But they still drink with the westerners in the know. Or they fly west!

Prohibition whether man made or 'gods' isn't worth a jot!

Completely disagree. Take a trip to Kosovo. A majority Muslim country leading a very western way of life. Lets leave all the other 'westernised Islamic' countries for another day.

And please don't pull the "religion makes you moral" line here. We are talking about burning your daughter because she looked at a man who she wasn't related to.

If any 'merciful god' even existed.....doing such an action would inevitably be against his/her edict!.....this is man/woman oppressing their own!! Simples!!

You may divorce your hubby... But the children remain 'his'. Even if you do keep them with you, should you re-marry, they go back to daddy - even if he is an alcoholic bully. Yes, in an Islamic country. And as a woman, your testimonial is worth 1/4 of a man - so if raped, you would need another 3 women as witnesses.

I know people brought up (and some still live) in an Islamic country - which had a revolution (headed by hardline outsiders). They turmed the clock back. From a country that prided itself in its history, art, culture, music... Religions and foreigners lived there side by side (mainly peacibly).

It went to women swathed in black, and teenage boys given roles as 'moral police'. Men hung in public for homosexuality. Women jailed for being raped. All hidden behind religion. After all, you can argue a mere man is wrong, but if he puts on religious garments and tells you that god says he is right, then who can stand against him?
The econony is shot because the twits runing the country.

The people who hate this regime most are those who have lived in it seen what it does. The only people I have met personally who bang on about how they want to live in an Islamic state, haven't really lived in one. They believe that the west is corrupt, women are Hollywood-style slappers and everyone drinks themselves into a drunken stupor and shag their neighbours - and believe that they are Right.

Yes, religion is like Communism. All very nice in theory, but doesn't quite equate to everyone living happily ever after. We all need to live in a world where we treat everyone as a brother or sister in humanity, not religion. There is no 'them and us'.

You're right: it's easy to google. Google 'gender gap' and find this:

The Gender Gap Report examines four critical areas of inequality between men and women in 130 economies around the globe, over 93% of the world?s population:

1. Economic participation and opportunity ? outcomes on salaries, participation levels and access to high-skilled employment
2. Educational attainment ? outcomes on access to basic and higher level education
3. Political empowerment ? outcomes on representation in decision-making structures
4. Health and survival ? outcomes on life expectancy and sex ratio

The 2009 report by the World Economic Forum has listed predominantly Islamic nations in the bottom of their annual Global Gender Gap (GGG) Index. This included such major nations as Pakistan (ranked 132 out of 134), Saudi Arabia (ranked 130 out of 134), Iran (ranked 128 out of 134), Egypt (ranked 126 out of 134), and Turkey (ranked 129 out 134). Yemen, which is 99 percent Islamic, was the bottom ranked nation as 134 on the Global Gender Gap Index. The only nation not predominantly Islamic in the bottom of the Global Gender Gap index was Benin.

The bottom 10 index nations (excluding Benin), which are all predominantly Islamic nations, represent a population of over half a billion individuals. These include Yemen (134 out of 134), Chad (133), Pakistan (132), Saudi Arabia (130), Turkey (129), Iran (128), Mali (127), Egypt (126), Qatar (125), Morocco (124). If women represent half of the population in these nations, then these bottom 10 predominantly Islamic nations demonstrate the ongoing oppression of an estimated 250 million women.

All of the predominantly Islamic nations referenced in these calculations are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). The OIC rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), and has created its own version of a human rights document, ?the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights? that stipulates that ?All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari?a? and that ?The Islamic Shari?a is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification to any of the articles of this Declaration.?

Not just SA, then is it?

Frontpaw, exactly. And MamaMary, this is proof that Islam which means Submission, is quite toxic for women.

CrescentMoon and a few other would argue black is white and that a burka is really quite liberating, but this is a total crock.

Crescent I forgot to say....does the "stable and peaceful environment to run family life and grow children up in" extend to living with the anxiety and fear of being told that you are not worshiping right.

That was a complaint made to me by an Egyptian friend before the Arab spring. My Kosovar drinking buddy views his religion as most UK citizens view theirs......"a general guide invented by ignorant men.....your round Peter".

All religions I have been exposed to are oppressive to some extent or another.....the more western your country the more they have been molded to suit the modern Zeitgeist.

Sorry to press you on this and I don't mean to offend. But its man who shapes world events.....not supernatural personalities.

MamaMary....I bow to your superb goggle skills.

What is an "Islamic" nation? Is it a nation with religious law? Or is it a nation with lots of Muslims in it, because the two are not the same.

Again, interesting that the world's most populous Muslim majority nation - Indonesia, doesn't feature in that list.
Nor does Malaysia.

I get so tired of this nonsense. You just see Muslims as cardboard cut out people "over there", half the people on here probably think pan-Arabism is a cuisine!

The situation in a country is not just about religion, it never is.

Yemen, for example has had a secular leader for years (before he was kicked out) and there have been frequent outbreaks of violence between various factions, and I mean various, everything from communists to religious hardliners for years, with all the social, economic problem that political instability causes.

But yeah, it must be all because of Islam

Also, note the sponsors of the GGG are the World Economic Forum who cosy up to the likes of the IMF, which causes global misery to line the pockets of the rich. Care to use your superb google skills on that anyone?

GothAnn: condemning "honour" killings is not the same as condemning Islam. Isn't that the point? That Islamic teaching is one of peace and supposedly it was one of the earliest of "today's" religions (barring goddess worship connumities) to instal some women's rights and equality as central?

I thought this thread started with the premise that "honour" killing (and other women's exploitation), while it it written in the Koran, is at the same time opposed to its central message of peace.

That's the whole point. There's no point saying, honour killing happens in India, yes we know, or not all Muslims are violent murderers, yes we know thanks for that.

If you want to defend Islam, lovely. If you want to defend violence carried out in its name, here's your space.