To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

No? Bad ideas? How about a law then that puts people in jail if they kill someone?

Gosh, why didn't I think of that?!

I work with helping some Muslim women I am not ignored that is because I a not intent on telling them how wrong they

There are some communities that are very closed off, very wary (reasons listed in previous posts)

We have a very large community that formmany families generations having been living here, they speak the same language where the problems of dv are very high. This community is often extremely closed off but people are also very hostile towards them which does not help at all. Are we all trying to get in there and help no we laugh at them and take the piss out of them and ignore often the very serious issues that is going on because sometimes it is easier as a society to turn a blind eye, totally wrong but it happens here. And if you have not guessed it is the travelling community i am talking about.

How ridiculous - and if you reported them, what shocking double standards after you've been calling people thick and bigoted through the thread.

If you find this funny - which you obviously do, I hope you are alone. Again, it pains me to have even virtual contact with anyone who finds family murder amusing.

Freudian: can I ask - are you a Muslim? I have assumed you are - maybe I'm wrong. Also it is personal information you might not want to give out.

I'm sure you know a good way to go about it and credit to you. I don't know how I would approach it myself - but the issues cannot be ignored, I'm sure you weren't serious in suggesting that.

That is my only point: that there can be no pretence and no turning a blind eye, that these problems should not be ignored and can best be addressed within the community. When you say - you don't tell them they're wrong - I hope you don't tell them they're right or agree with them on issues such as honour killing?

No I am not a Muslim. I am an atheist

What do you think Byrcie I would sit there and agree that having her daughter killed because she has shamed them is ok.

I have never discussed honour killings in my line of work (have with people I know as a discussion not have you heard blah blah blah) and I doubt I ever will but certainly the issues of violence come up and the shame they feel (a feeling all women have) it is for me to help guide them to move on in a safe way not judge the cultural differences and it is also important for me to understand the different issues. If I felt anyone was in serious danger I would and have a duty to report it to the police.

I work in dv and help run programmes to empower women to hopefully move on

Ok but you said you don't intend to tell people they're wrong. Your post was quite difficult to understand. "I a not intent on telling them how wrong they" (are I think you meant to say) I was just trying to get some clarity. I have no idea how or if the subject comes up - why would I? I'm interested - but if you want to be sarky I'm not interested. I was trying to understand how you would address those issues.

yes I missed the are off

I am from within the Muslim community,

If I said to my family and friends honour killings are bad, they would say obviously they are and say it is disgusting the people need to learn islam etc

however it is the same thing as if i say paedophile priests are bad, my family and friends would say they need to learn what it means to be Christian and in a position of trust and it is disgusting, I mean we watched exposure, we talked about it amongst ourselves, but obviously the same way I will come on here and everyone would be disgusted, everyone in real life i know would have same response,

i don't know how talking to my muslim family and friends would have any more impact on the people who commit honour killings then chatting to you lot. in fact chatting to you lot is probably more beneficial coz of lurkers.

When it comes to domestic violence i talk about it, i blog about it, i support women irl, but honour killings is not dv. domestic abuse is not about honour.

thats why i said, when it comes to grooming i know what to do, when it comes to dv i also know what to do, but honour killings i have no clue,

Nailak thanks, there was talk of DV being the same as honour killings earlier. Well I don't know if you don't know - but there must be a role for the mosque and madrassa and for imams to speak out. For example, if there is an honour killing for it to be condemned by those in religious authority and for community group leaders and so on. Not just internally among family and friends but visibly, in the local and national press and so on.

And on mumsnet. But of course

I think you mis understand the role imams play. All imams do in most mosques is lead prayers AMD generic sermons on Friday about irrelevant things. All madrassas do is teach arabic.

There is plenty against honour killings in local and national press and plenty of sheikhs that speak out against it. However the people who commit honour killings are not the type of.people who care what sheikhs say or.local press says really are they? The people who watch this kind of stuff are people who want to.learn non cultural Islam.

'All madrassas do is teach Arabic' -- when were you last in a madrassa?

Your statements are balloon juice, Nailak.

If one were to take some posts here seriously one would be forced to conclude that there both is and isn't such a thing as Islam, and there is and isn't (simultaneously, mind) any such thing as a teaching role for anyone in 'Islam'; when 'religion' is criticised it is called 'culture' and when practices that are held to be religious are criticised as mere 'culture' then no, they are not mere culture, they are elements of 'religion' but of course there is no religion, just culture, or wait - no culture, just religion no, hang on there is religion but actually nobody to define what exactly the religion is.... Nobody does anything by way of teaching, or leading; apparently anyone who considers themselves a believer can make up whatever it is that he or she wants to adhere to as far as articles of faith go. It is a mercurial thing, Islam.

Madrassa is just the Arabic word for school.

I think the starting point has to be respecting women and perhaps not dividing the sexes, which let's face it can't happen. The practicing Muslims I know, and granted I know less than ten, but they all comment about how 'men at the mosque' advise them upon not being modest enough or wanting to keep the community closed, going outside the community for x,y,z. So there is a culture of secrecy, non integration and men feeling they have authority. The passages in the Quran that talk of woman being a delicate flower and having half the merit of a man can't help.

Thanks for articulating that Math. Nailak I don't understand what is behind your post. Is it a sense of hopelessness or a hostility to any idea that "something can be done" which emanates from a non-Muslim.
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I'm trying to understand why "men and the mosque" can't speak out. Nailak you said that all your family and friends would be disgusted by it. Some of them must be men. Why can't they vocalise their disgust more publicly? Or when it comes to church leaders, for example, there are more controversial clerics who speak out in favour of more fundamentalist ideas, so why can't this happen in the opposite direction?

Isn't the role of madrassas very important? It's one thing to have a law against it. But what's more important is for attitudes about honour and sex discrimination and separation to change, a groundswell, as has happened in the Anglican church about women priests, as is happening now about homosexuality. That starts from the bottom. I don't understand the hostility to this idea or for it to be considered such a (bad) joke.

Nailik are you a convert? Only I'm wondering whether being a woman and a convert makes you one of the least powerful in the community? Which would lead down a cul-de-sac.

why do you think they do not speak out have you been to meetings of Muslim charities that work within the community but this is hardly going to be headlines in the daily mail is it where those in support of shria law is because that puts fear in people and creates a distrust of Muslims that some areas of our press encourage. Islam is not set up like the church where you have such authority figures with Sunni Muslims

Do you really think Muslim men have no respect for women. I felt respected living in a mulsim country and was always treated with respect. There is some difficulties with the first and second generations wanting to break away from traditions but this happens with all cultures I know plenty of people who's parents are Irish and devout Catholics them not being so devout causes tension, within my own family not being as traditional causes arguments. That is not to say all Muslim men respect women as not all Christian or Jewish men all respect women the disrespect of women is not based upon religion

But clearly there is a lack of respect, not unlike the rest of the world, but these people (any collective worship types) do have people they will listen to and so are easier to reach. I think leading by example is fundamental.

I wonder if the constructs of Islam lends itself to segregation of the sexes and therefore a platform for women to be placed second? women are to be covered and uncovered for men who marry them, surely that makes "I dress for whomever I please" a bit as it is directed by Islam.

Posie I would say I was one of the most powerful in the community because I organise a lot of stuff! I have these discussions with people, run circles and events etc.

At my last event I called Nour Domestic Violence and National Zakat foundation to speak to the women about domestic violence, what they can do if they know someone etc..

manth I am sorry but all the madrassas round here just teach arabic to kids, which is why I don't send my kids there. Maybe your experiences are different, but I dont know why you feel it is ok to invalidate mine.

" Why can't they vocalise their disgust more publicly? Or when it comes to church leaders, for example, there are more controversial clerics who speak out in favour of more fundamentalist ideas, so why can't this happen in the opposite direction?"

More publicly where? I asked the masjid to give us a room to have circle in and they said no. They only let people they know talk and have groups etc in the masjids.

I can run a circle on honour killings, and why they are bad, but i wouldn't change any perceptions, as all the women in the circle would already agree its bad. My hsband could do the same.

As for why do people not speak out, they do but it doesn't make headlines, do a quick search on you tube and you will see them.

blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/12/07/canadian-imams-to-speak-out-against-honor-killing-in-muslim-families/
Canadian imams plan to condemn the ?misguided notion? of so-called honor killings in their Friday sermons this week, responding to the high-profile trial of a father accused of murdering his three teenage daughters, allegedly because they shamed his Afghan family.

The two dozen imams, backed by 60 Canadian Muslim groups, will plead for action to fight domestic violence, perhaps quoting comments from the prophet Mohammad that ?the best amongst you is he who treats women the best.?

www.guidedones.com/metapage/women/honorkill.htm On studying the issues involved and Quranic injunctions on this matter, I realized that this is a clear example of how far Muslims have come from implementing the true teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah (example of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him )!

www.mwlusa.org/topics/violence&harrassment/hk.html The problem of ?honor killings? is not a problem of morality or of ensuring that women maintain their own personal virtue; rather, it is a problem of domination, power and hatred of women who, in these instances, are viewed as nothing more than servants to the family, both physically and symbolically.

www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/fatwa.html ?There is no such concept in Islam that is called ?honor killing?. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

my point was the imams dont do what they are supposed to do, the mosques are segregated by ethnicity, if an imam talks about contreversial things the mosque committees sack them or stop them,

in a culture which honour killings occur and are accepted which has a mosque who would be the most poweful people in that community who are on the mmosque committee?

and people who are not religiously inclined dont go looking for fatwas before doing things, they use their own interpretations,

you wont find any fatwas by mainstream scholars saying women dont need to wear hijab, yet people say we dont,

even if the scholars say honour killings are haram, as they do, those who dont want to listen and want to follow their own desires will do that.