To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

Frontpaw - Whatever you call it, apparently God wasn't happy with this turn that Christianity took after the death of Jesus and took pains to make sure that in Islam, there would be no intermediary and nobody to pray to but God Himself.

I don't think this is a religious issue. It's about psychopaths hiding behind religion to justify their crimes.

"It is not just "culture". It's culture informed by religious belief"

Really? I suppose you can now tell us where in the Quran we can find honor killings sanctioned.

I am actually interested to know where exactly your claim to authority on the subject of Islam comes from? Are you Muslim? Have you ever lived in a Muslim country? Have you ever had any formal education in Islam? Have you read the Quran?

If you aren't Christian, that is! God wasnt too keen on the old golden calf idea either, hence the 7 and 8th commandments forbiding the worship of other gods, and the making of graven (carved) images that would be worshipped.

I like the idea of saints though - God must be far too busy looking after the whole world, so outsources soe of the work beyond The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Aw fuck - you're all losing me now.

Honor/Honour Killings: - what's it all about how do these murderers get away with it?

What makes you think that honor killers get away with it? The ones I know about are all in jail. Not only the murderers themselves but the entire family council that incited them to murder, in most cases that I know of.

Frontpaw - I like the idea of only believing in stuff I can bite into or otherwise prove the existence of. It's a character flaw that I haven't been able to fix since early childhood

I work for a vicar, so that explains quite a bit! Im not a holy willie (as they say back home) though, but there are definately more things in heaven and earth, etc etc etc.

"Really? I suppose you can now tell us where in the Quran we can find honor killings sanctioned"

Like I said, morality for dummies. Child abuse isn't sanctioned by the Bible but the Catholic church shouldn't wash its hands. Christian fundamentalist murder isn't sanctioned by the Bible but that doesn't mean the evangelical community can wash its hands.

We all know it's not in the Qran. We've said it many, boringly many times. It doesn't suit you that we know because you think you know everything in the whole world ever about everything. However we do. Can you actually cope with that fact. For the one hundred millionth time - we know.

"I am actually interested to know where exactly your claim to authority on the subject of Islam comes from? Are you Muslim? Have you ever lived in a Muslim country? Have you ever had any formal education in Islam? Have you read the Quran? "

God this is like tedium 101. I can imagine the endless hectoring at dinner parties.

Some Muslims do it believing their faith justifies it. Some senior members of the Muslim community support this belief. This means that although it is not all Muslims, or only Muslims, it needs to be addressed within the Muslim community, as "outsiders" will not be listened to .

Animation, witnessed many horrific acts in my many years working abroad.

Again, how do I deal with this from within the community?

Nailak:I don't know but my whole point is that to acknowledge it is a start. If it's not acknowledged it will never be addressed. Not to pretend there's no role for Islam in fighting it - which you don't, by your earlier posts. There are imams speaking out. Why can't you speak out, if the subject comes up in conversation or in the news? It needs to come from the all levels, a general feeling that it's unacceptable and abhorrent. You are not a nothing. Your voice has value. I don't use the term "sisters" but I know you do, so if I may use the term - your sisters have a voice. Why can you not use your voice? Add it to those who already speak out?

I mean look at that teenager who campaigned for education. On paper she's a person of no significance. What she has done is incredible.

Cote. NEVER lived in the UK....

But where would you start? If I marched to church and said 'ok you lot, stop shooting doctors who perform abortions!' I'd be carted off as a loon.

People who harm in the name of religion do so either behind closed doors (how many neighbours in UK cases said 'oh they were quiet family and kept themselves to themselves'. A murderous nut isn't going to be saying to his workmates 'anything planned for the weekend? Me? I'm slaughtering a family member'.

The areas in the world where this is most likely to happen is where the focus needs to be, and this is where women have very low status, education and freedoms.

Muslims I know do acknowledge that it is done in the name of religion, but that it has little to do with the majorities day to day actuality of being a muslim. I don't know of anyone who has been harmed by a family member apart from a catholic who stabbed her husband (an ex-in-law's relative) and that wasn't racially, culturally or religiously motivated.

Why are you reducing it to the absurd frontpaw? Are you suggesting there is nothing that can be done in the UK?

Not absurd at all. Just making a reasonable statement. If people know of this going on within their family, friends or local community, yes of course they can and ought to dive in and act. I was pointing out that of all the crap done in the name of christianity, it is a million miles away from where I sit.

I have said that people do admit its done with religion the blame, but that is a pile of crap. So what do you think can solve the problem exactly and who is to do it?

If marching somewhere and telling people what to do is not absurd then why would you be carted off like a loon?

I do think that's an absurd idea but then - I didn't suggest it.

I would have thought people within the Muslim community would know the answer to your second question best. Don't you? I know that it wouldn't be much good me, a non Muslim, trying to talk about it - you can see from this thread people don't want to listen to a non Muslim, there's a lot of hostility.

How about 'honour killers anonymous'. Make posters and put them inside all mosques. Then the potential killers can go to these meeting to talk it through. Like the AA but with a better story.

How's that!?

Sili I thought you were ignoring me. I take this seriously, shame you don't. Why don't you devise a stand up routine based on family murder. Why don't you ignore me some more and go and do that right now.

Frontpaw, for example: when it comes to say women priests and Christianity, as I'm sure you know, it took a deepening groundswell of opinion, Christians talking to fellow Christians, conversations about tolerance, and some hard campaigning, but it was achieved in the end. Do you see? Now I could be a part of that, but I couldn't take part in a similar conversation in a Muslim community - I would be ignored.

Or how about 'relate' for honour killers.

Free counciling for would be killers. Buy two sessions and get one free. we will give you an 'honours' certificate so you don't have to murder.