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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

999 replies

Mooblies · 02/11/2012 21:11

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

OP posts:
PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:07

But one man convicted was not Pakistani, hence why I said Asian.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:08

Again, Pakistani culture has Islamic themes and thinking, and vice versa for Pakistanis.

I think Islam hides and unites when it suits under the guise of separate and together.

mathanxiety · 10/11/2012 19:09

To assert that people asking questions about honour killings in Muslim communities are bigots is unnecessarily defensive. 'If you're not with me you're against me' is not really an attitude that is conducive to creating a spirit of understanding. Or creating much of a discussion. People with questions are not necessarily members of the BNP.

The lines between culture and religion are blurred. This is the case with Irish Catholicism and in Islam.

To make a hard and fast distinction when it suits between religion and culture, as in the case of honour killings for instance but to refuse to acknowledge that wearing a full veil is a cultural expression and not a religious imperative make no logical sense.

Face veiling is done by many Muslim women. Is that something the Koran orders?
Honour killing of females is done by some Muslim families. Is that something the Koran orders?

This is not a centrally organised religion here. You cannot base a rebuttal of the questions about honour killings in Muslim society on the basis that 'Islam says' this or that about it. It is a religion where individual scholars decide what the beliefs are and what the practices should be, what they prioritise and what their followers should prioritise. This much is abundantly clear from the proliferation of sects within Islam, with each looking down its nose at the rest and holding that it is the only one that has managed to keep the true fire burning. No-one can quote the Koran and insist that their interpretation is what Islam is all about because there will always be someone else saying something else -- that women must be veiled, that jihad must be carried out against America, that girls should not be educated, that boys' education should consist of religious education only, that Israel must be destroyed, etc., and that there is no contradiction whatsoever between all of that and the intention of the Prophet when the religion was first founded.

Cote, just to correct an assertion of yours about Christians worshipping beings other than God -- Christians do not worship beings besides God. Even Catholics, who believe that there are saints, etc., do not worship them. Saints (even Mary) are seen as exemplary, not godlike but examples of the love of God working in the world, our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether alive or dead, who can pray for us and with us (praying for and with our brothers and sisters is a biblical injunction). The focus of prayers is always God (who is held to have three persons, father, son and holy spirit). An example is the Rosary focusing on the life of Jesus.

CrescentMoon -- wrt Leviticus:
'Each major element of the Levitical code has both a valid historical reason and a figurative or mystical meaning'.
Christianity focuses on the figurative or mystical meaning and sees the New Testament as the fulfillment of the promises made or implied in the Old Testament. Hence the structure of the RC church (echoing the Levite priesthood), the centrality of sacrifice (as in the consecration of the Eucharist in RC Mass) and other details that focus on structure, sacrifice, and the relationship between God and people. Leviticus was the book of daily law of the Israelites, prescribing the minutiae of worship and daily life for that particular group. Christianity was the emergence of the new law that superseded the old.

Extraneous elements from Leviticus were eliminated from the Christian canon. The precise letter of the law (the injunction to burn a daughter who profaned her upbringing for instance) was taken at figurative value and the reason behind it teased out -- the basic thought there was discerned to be the need for a priest and the priestly caste to be pure. In Catholicism the interpretation of this injunction to be pure means that a priest should take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, so ideally there should not be a daughter in the picture. RC theology (I can't speak for any protestant interpretation) focuses on the underlying reason for the injunction to burn a daughter who dishonours the household of the priest, and that reason is the necessity for a priest to be pure. The person of the priest is subsumed into the office (when a man becomes a priest he leaves being a man behind in a spiritual sense and in a sexual sense); allowing personal corruption means corruption of the office and hence defilement of the religion.

If you are interested in reading a detailed exposition on the subject of Leviticus and Catholicism.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:13

Gosh math I'll read that in a minute.

"But it's not solely their problem is it?! "

Who said it was? Child abuse is not solely a Catholic problem but the Church needs to deal with its elements engaged in this evil activity.

Or do you think not, because - it's not just their problem, is it?

mathanxiety · 10/11/2012 19:13

'Extraneous elements' in the sense that they were details that were part of a larger picture but not necessary in and of themselves in order to maintain faithfulness to the foundation of the Old Testament. Details like burning a daughter were not necessary but the big picture of a pure priesthood was.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:14

So - answer the question. Which societies? Or withdraw your accusation of bigotry.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 19:29

There you go again. Hmm

Thought I answered this one just for you.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:29

Also Sili, it's not considered good form to 'out' people. I've no idea if Brycie has a name change or anything but if she used to be someone else there may be good reason, it's not for you to ask.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:30

And if you answered the question I missed it too!

What societies, specifically, needs focus when it comes to honour killings? (we'll see if yours ties in with Human rights and women's charities)

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:33

According to Karma Nirvana honour based crimes involve the complicity of the wider community, and we know that the wider community of ethnic groups do tend to centre around their religion.....otherwise you wouldn't get honour cries regarding one Muslim group to another.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 19:35

posei, I am not 'outing' anyone out of
Malice. Just pointing out that I may have come across a person who argues just like brycie does.

Apologies if I have broken a code! That was not my intention.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 19:42

Just because the catholic priest and pedophilia issue was dealt with in a certain way, does not mean that that exact approach is going to work in other wide set of communities. The only similarities I see in the communities where honour killings happen is the lack of education.
Lets address this.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 19:42

Sorry honour crimes not cries.

This is really not a "Islam" is evil thread, this is a thread in order to understand why communities are not dealing with this issue. I think the first reason is denial.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:51

You haven't answered it. Which societies need to address the question of honour killing?

"The only similarities I see in the communities where honour killings happen is the lack of education."

Not in the UK.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:55

I'm not Beech, Posie, don't worry. No you didn't mean to break any code sili - you wanted to avoid the question and create a smear.

Frontpaw · 10/11/2012 19:57

Is there a thread the links these crimes? A highly patriarchal society, lack of education, poverty...? How can this be addressed? We have the likes of the Taliban in Pakistan trying to stop girls being educated. Whose responsibility is it to stop them - the UN? America? Saudi?

We all agree here that she shooting of Malala was bloody despicable - and this was justified by religion by those who did it. How can we stop this? Outrage isn't enough and talking round and round about is it or isn't it Islamic isn't helping. All that matters is that the bastards who ordered the shooting and those who carried it out/turned a blind eye say so (whether they really believe it or not). Be angry! Be outraged! Direct it at those causing the problem and not at each other.

Some people will never see eye to eye, but can't we agree that women have the right to education, to make decisions about their lives and marry whom they choose?

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:57

,"This is a thread in order to understand why communities are not dealing with this issue. I think the first reason is denial."

Exactly this. If the problem is not acknowledged, it can't be addressed. As Silli has noted, some Imams are addressing this in the Muslim community. Presumably she disagrees with their decision to do so as she has made it clear she believes it's really nothing to do with Islam at all.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 19:59

People outside Islam may Be angry! and Outraged! - but as this thread has demonstrated, no one wants to listen to anyone deemed to be "outside" - because we aren't Muslim, or don't live in a Muslim country, or blah blah blah. It has to be addressed within the community.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 20:00

"Whose responsibility is it to stop them - the UN? America? Saudi?"

You would rather the Americans did this - advocating colonialism? - rather then Muslims within their own community?

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 20:03

I'm Going to ignore you brycie. Wink

front, good post. See, if you address education, hopefully you somewhat address poverty too. You arm therefore 50% of the population (women) with adequate weapons to ensure things are done correctly now and in the future generation.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 20:06

I'm not in the least bit surprised Silibili. To avoid the question you've tried name-calling, smearing, misrepresentation, misquoting - so now going back to ignoring is probably all you've got left.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 20:08

"no one wants to listen to anyone deemed to be "outside"

I quote myself. And you've proved my point Silibili.

Frontpaw · 10/11/2012 20:11

God no, I wasnt seriously suggesting the US (what did Romney say 'saviour of the world')!

I cant repeat what my muslim MIL calls these people but its not very religious names. Yes muslims to object but they donbt recognise it as anything that they recognise. I know a muslim who said 'people from XX? We dont even see them as human'. So no, you cant say 'all muslims'. Its like when my sister moved to the US and was yelled at in the office by some twat who held her personally responsible for The Troubles.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 20:14

But in the Quran you're either Muslim or your not, hardly like the Good Samaritan parable is it?

Frontpaw · 10/11/2012 20:16

You could always pretend, or choose the bits that suit you.

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