To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

"Their extremism is not directed by the Qran; but they believe it is. That their extremism is not directed by the Qran does not mean it is unconnected with Islam. "

You didn't even quote me right. Are you deliberately misunderstanding or misrepresenting? Read and respond if you can. It's helpful. As opposed to making stuff up.

But traips you asserted that it was better to be a person with disabilities in Turkey than in the UK .

Apologies for not quoting you word for word. I am not on my laptop to be able to copy and paste. But please explain that line.

I just did explain it. You didn't just not "quote me word for word". You misrepresented.

Here's my explanation which you obviously didn't read (again) first time round. I'm not sure I really do have your attention.

"Isn't it obvious that some people believe their actions are directed by the Qran when even people like me - non-Muslims - realise it isn't? These problems have to be addressed by Muslims - no extremist is going to listen to me. "

Tough one huh?

Posie, you are splitting hairs. I was talking about those who are not in institutions - I wasn't actually thinking about institutions at all when I posted originally. I haven't actually visited any such places in Turkey, but again I assert that most of those practices are unlikely to be done out of cruelty but out of lack of education and lack of finance.

Not out of cruelty? Are you having a laugh? Taping a bottle to an infants arm is hardly out of love is it?

And you site one example of disabled parking as an indicator and another of one person you know in Turkey and think this proves your idea?????

Human rights are not exactly something people champion Turkey about is it?

And I'll tell you what I think about people signing up to fight for jihad over their country is that to many religious nuts followers the call from God or a religious reason outweighs their culture!

Is this Mumsnet knockknockginger? Cry bigot and run away?

Christ Brycie now you're prejudiced against people with ginger hair

Rosemary - "The Quran is complete, I get that. But a lot of quotes are passed of as hadith."

What do you mean? There are the Surah of the Quran, and then there are the Hadith (i.e. what Mohammad allegedly said & did).

"BUT surely point is to from your own interpretation of the text? Any views?"

Of course. It seems that Mohammad (or God) has learned some lessons from the way Christianity went after the death of Jesus and has took pains to avoid the establishment of a central authority/church and worshipping the prophet and other religious figures. Muslims are supposed to read the Quran and form a relationship between themselves and God, without any intermediary.

"Re honour killings. Yes cultural. But some cultures have a majority religion. Thus the followers should shurely be educated that female circumsion (another cultural practice used in, for the most part, countries where Islam is the predominant faith) and 'honour' killings are absolutely not religiously justifiable."

I agree with you. When these people realise that FGM has no place in Islam, we will see its prevalence decrease.

Btw, FGM is almost entirely an African phenomenon. It predates Islam and happens in Christian communities as well as Muslim ones, so is clearly unrelated to Islam. Check out the map of countries where it's practiced.

"Most honour killings happen in South Asian Islamic countries and the Middle East (up to 20,000 women each year)."

UN says that 5,000 honor killings happen worldwide per year.

Do you know better than the UN? Or can we now say that you are ignorant about the facts?

"All happen in 'the name' of religion."

They don't actually. If you read the accounts of people who have committed such crimes, they invariably say that this was necessary to clear their family's honour wrt the society. I haven't said any that says "religion said I had to do it", but since you know all this so well, maybe you could prove how ALL honor killings happen in the name of religion.

Brycie - re "I linked to a Guardian piece about Turkey and honour killings"

Oh yes you did, but clearly you haven't read it. If you had, you would see the below correction that Guardian put ahead of it:

The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Wednesday 24 February 2010

The article below reported the arrest of relatives on suspicion of killing a teenager for having friendships with boys. More than 200 such killings take place each year, said the piece, "accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey". According to Eurostat, Turkey's yearly murder rate averaged 6.1 per 100,000 population between 2005 and 2007 (the ­latest figures), meaning that the 200 are actually set against an annual total of about 4,400.

Brycie - Going back to the rest of your funny post:

"It seems some people don't wish to educate themselves and that's why they accuse others of it. "

Oh, you are one in a million

I am Turkish, you silly... uh... person. I was born there, I lived there for decades, and I speak & read Turkish.

Googling a few articles which you don't even read is highly unlikely to "educate" you about the realities of Turkey to any level where you can possibly take me on in a debate about them.

If you had the sense that your God promised a door knob, you would now shut up and listen to people like me & traipsing who happen to know places you merely hear about, but having had the pleasure of your company on this thread, I sadly don't see this as very likely.

Great posts cotes.

I went for a late lunch and thought I'd check where we are with this debate.
Nice to see you are in full form.

To add to cotes post, I have been to and lived in Turkey. The people are warm, open and respectful. They practice a moderate form of Islam. In my time there, I did not see a single women in face coverings. Dress codes varies from totally western to some wearing scarves. The food is fabulous. In fact one of the best I have tasted in the world.
Education level is generally high. This is something to aspire to.

Back again. Missed the last couple of pages and am on the blackberry so can't do my own digging, so I have a query.

The countries which have - sorry still can't use the H word - family murders, do they also have the death penalty by the state? Is there a link between the value of life here?

So countries where the death penalty is carried out with vigour is a more violent society? I know that China is high on the death penalty list, so I may be talking rot, but it's a thought? In the UK we don't seem to have so many instances of people (ok, so its mainly men) 'going postal'.

So 5000 honour killings happen every year. I wonder how many Muslims there are in the world? That should put some perspective on this.

Well as opposed to the UN I chose Human Rights Watch as my source.

And "great posts" Really? Fucking rude more like. What grown up (not 15yr old) says your 'funny post'?

Seems to me Cote, that as you and Traips have lived in or are Turkish, which obviously makes you an expert. I can make myself an expert on the UK, that's your logic right?

In Jordan the Islamist party believes honour killings are part of Islamic code and 1/5 of Jordanites believe that also.

Wiki says 1.6 billion as of 2009. So what % is 5000 of 1.6billion?! A very very very small number.

Sil. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

1. Even with Cotes rather reduced stat you should be able to see it was for a particular part of the world.
2. Noone has said that it is ONLY Muslims,
3. Noone has said it is an Islamic directive

The point is that in religions and cultures evolved alongside or as part of that religion the Religion has some questions to answer.

I'm sorry that you feel 5000 (which is actually 20000) children and women being sentenced to death by their families for nothing is "such a small number" as if it's something to celebrate. Wow.

The percentage is

thousands of people dying.

Posie you are making yourself look foolish again

No one has celebrated any murders

how can religion answer to questions. It clearly states what is right and wrong if people want to choose to blame their religion and justify their actions by twisting religion that is down to them they know they have done wrong but need to justify it

How can we explain why 2 women a week are murdered by their partner or ex partner there are so many reasons what leads to it but control or wanting to control others is what it comes down too the same as in so called honour killings. Men who murder their partner will always have a reason she made me, she was trying to make me jealous, i was defending myself and so on

Then society has questions to answer, we have to work out why men feel so entitled to control their partners or ex partners. This is not rocket science.

Great posts Cote