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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

999 replies

Mooblies · 02/11/2012 21:11

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

OP posts:
RosemaryHoyt · 10/11/2012 11:07

The Quran is complete, I get that. But a lot of quotes are passed of as hadith. I am a bit hmm about hat as it seems like an interpretation guide. BUT surely point is to from your own interpretation of the text?

Any views?

Re honour killings. Yes cultural. But some cultures have a majority religion. Thus the followers should shurely be educated that female circumsion (another cultural practice used in, for the most part, countries where Islam is the predominant faith) and 'honour' killings are absolutely not religiously justifiable. Both make me so angry I want to be sick. By which I mean their is no perfect way of categorising people with an unacceptable cultural practice, by religion is a lazy shorthand.

It is of course offensive to Muslims when they are lumped together with murderers for obvious reasons. Not least the fact murder is one of the deeds that lands you straight in the fire.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 11:09

I'm not sure anyone is thinking that Islam (or any other religion) says you must kill your shameful children, but themes in some religion may cause people to think a)killing in it's name is not sinful b)that a man has a right to do this.

FreudiansSlipper · 10/11/2012 11:11

yes they are

what was it you said if only they integrated this country would be a better place yes let's blame you will have support within the bnp community. I have seen you ignorance on other threads too but you seem willing to educate yourseld but not willing to drop the stance on wanting to show Muslims they are wrong and you are right

You will not find anyone on here who has said honour killings are ok as the Koran says they are because it is not true it does not

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 11:16

And therefore (per frauds post and to extend its meaning), honour killings are NOT because of Islam. It is just a coincidence it is practiced in SOME regions where Islam is prevalent. Honour killings do NOT happen in Malaysia or Indonesia even though there is a high % of Muslims.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 11:16

And no, I am not Muslim and have nothing to gain by my posts.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 11:24

And yes, it is offensive to insist that these practices are due to a certain religion when they are clearly not. It is a form of bigotry to insist otherwise without any grounding or proof (I.e. quote me verses from the Kuran that says kill your daughters if she wears make up or talks to boys etc.).
There are many many people here saying it is cultural and giving proof.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 11:34

Erm, that's not true about honour killings not happening in those countries. Most honour killings happen in South Asian Islamic countries and the Middle East (up to 20,000 women each year). All happen in 'the name' of religion.

If a woman's punishment for adultery is to be stoned, according to Muhammed, why wouldn't a follower think that if his daughter shames him he can't kill her? Not saying all do but surely there's accountability somewhere!!

traipsingalong · 10/11/2012 11:50

But Posie, with respect, they don't all happen 'in the name of' religion. Where on earth have you read that/learnt that? Certainly not from the killers themselves. They would say that most of them happen 'in the name of' honour, yes. But that is a separate issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't women also stoned for adultery in the Bible? But 'Christian' countries don't carry out honour killings because our culture has evolved differently. Instead, we mug old ladies and taunt people with learning difficulties in the street with our 'fuck you' attitude to everyone (this is where our Western individualism has led us). You would be hard pressed to find any incidence of these things in the cultures we are talking about.

We are also, in our 'Christian' countries, in general, lucky enough to enjoy a better standard of education, the poor level of which is another factor common to those countries/cultures where honour killings occur.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 11:58

Sorry are you suggesting that it's harder to have learning difficulties in the UK than in Saudi Arabia?

Thing is about Islam and culture and blah blah, is that when questions are asked of it regarding honour killings everyone retreats into it's culture, not religion, it's not ONE group, there are many factions etc etc. BUT when someone posted a film of Muhammed similar responses happened the world over and yet we are still supposed to believe that violence is not part of Islam? Really? The same fucking verses are on placards, the same justification coming out of people's mouths.

I will not accept that when religion and culture run along side eachother and influence eachother that there is no root in religion. And if honour killings were happening pre religion, which they were, why didn't any religious prophet deal with it? Why is there a reference in the Quran to both stoning and beating a woman?

Brycie · 10/11/2012 11:59

Cote> I linked to a Guardian piece about Turkey and honour killings a long time ago. It seems some people don't wish to educate themselves and that's why they accuse others of it. I think it's called transposing. I've linked to all sorts of stuff people plainly haven't read because they don't want to.

It's plain that this "not reading what other things write and then reacting in a knee jerk way to something you imagine they've written in order to bolst one's prejudice" is quite common on this thread.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:02

"So, basically, what you are saying is that you are a bigot, but I am not saying it because I'm "mealy-mouthed"."

No - I'm saying you're randomly flinging around accusations of bigotry but can't back them up. You're too mealy-mouthed to then withdraw your accusation.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:02

Would anyone like to post where ANYONE has said on this thread that honour killings are directed by the Qran? No?

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:05

here you go again

Wouldn't want you to go to any effort to find it again. Not that you would. Ignorance is bliss after all.

traipsingalong · 10/11/2012 12:10

I can't speak about Saudi Arabia, but I can speak about Turkey, and yes, it is harder to have learning difficulties here in the UK than there. The Turkish are incredibly accepting and loving towards anyone who needs more help with everyday living than those of us lucky enough to have all our health and all our faculties. Since living back in the UK, one example I can give of this is when my friend went to collect her youngest son from school, with his 14 year old severely disabled brother in the car. She always needs to park in the disabled slots near to the school because getting the older brother in and out of the car is a bit of a nightmare, so she leaves him in the car, where she can see him, while she waits for the youngest. One woman, who is neither disabled herself, nor has disabled children, always parks there. My friend, once, had no choice but to block her in. When she came back to the car, the other woman was waiting with a torrent of abuse. My friend explained her predicament re the older brother, and this other woman said "I. Don't. Care." Nice, eh? That would never, never, never happen in Turkey. Similarly there is a very much higher level of respect shown to old people there. Something has gone slightly amiss here in Britain in those areas. But that is not what we are discussing....

As I said in my previous post, there is a reference in the Bible to stoning a woman - you know - the one where Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

The violence you speak about regarding the pictures of Mohammed was down to lack of education and also conditioning. My dh was offended, but not drawn into violence because he had the benefit of being born in Western Turkey, to a father who was a teacher, and where the education is broader. The violent factions tend to come from the East where there is terrible poverty and children are routinely pulled out of school to work to help with the family finances.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:15

Very different to Saudi Arabia: where wealthy and well-educated people (Osama bin Laden) head to extremes. In the UK there are extremists without terrible poverty, and lack of education. Across Europe there are extremists without terrible poverty and lack of education.

Their extremism is not directed by the Qran; but they believe it is. That their extremism is not directed by the Qran does not mean it is unconnected with Islam.

Organisations like Love for All Hatred for None accept this connection and challenge it from within.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:18

Actually I don't know much about LFHHFN. It's just quite active around me and seems to reach out. I'm going to read a bit more about it.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:19

Oh Cote ..I wonder how long I have to wait for your response? Quite a while it seems. Unless you've gone shopping like wot I did.

Shock unless you're actually reading it heaven forfend

dinkybinky · 10/11/2012 12:31

What is permissible in Koran is permissible in Islamic countries. Therefore Muslims do not see honour killings as offensive, as long as the killer pays the blood money. Allah says that the score is settled as long as blood money is paid. So killings are not the problem according to Allah. The problem is whether the person paid for those killings or not.

traipsingalong · 10/11/2012 12:41

I think that educated extremists often have slight mental health issues, but that they are also clever and educated enough to know that if they use religion as a tool, they can recruit the lesser educated masses to do their dirty work for them, because they know that the one thing that will get the masses riled is religion/blind faith. An example of this was Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, former President of Turkey (who, incidentally, ensured that women got the vote in Turkey before they did in Britain) - during the First World War, he told his people that it was a jihad - a holy war - in order to get the men of Turkey to sign up to fight. It wasn't a jihad, of course, but that's how he rallied his men... Think of that what you will.

So yes, Brycie, there are exceptions to every rule, but while it seems we accept that extremism is not dictated by the Quran, I hesitate to agree that it is connected to Islam, since I am not sure that the agenda of the 'head' extremists is indeed anything to do with religion; I think it is more to do with simple power and a conditioned hatred, born of simple jealousy, of the perceived wealth of the West.

Silibilimili · 10/11/2012 12:42

"Extremism is not directed by the Quran and therefore does not mean it is unconnected to Islam. "

brycie, you have my attention. Please explain what you mean by above? How can you segregate Quran from Islam?!

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 12:45

Traips. How peculiar that you speak of Turkey, a country that still uses electric shock therapy on children as young as nine and is found to allow people to starve in 'rehab' centres (which are old skool lunatic asylums) until a huge effort by disability rights campaigners, in 2005. They still tape bottles to the hands of immobile infants who spend their lives so bored that they scratch their own faces and bite themselves.

Violence against women in Turkey is endemic, a pretty poor example of a country that fails at every turn in comparison to the UK.

PosieParker · 10/11/2012 12:47

And, not that I want to get into one group of fairies is better than the other, but when Jesus said he who is without sin caste the first stone, it meant that only those without sin can punish others....ie noone.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:52

Silibili: are you hinting that Islamic extremism has no connection to Islam because it is not directed by the Qran?

traipsingalong · 10/11/2012 12:54

Posie, you are right - Turkey is indeed far from perfect - my point is education, education, education. Everything you have pointed out could be improved, with education.

The prevalence of domestic violence is one of the reasons we moved back the UK to educate our dd, incidentally. But I will happily discuss that on another thread.

Brycie · 10/11/2012 12:56

Isn't it obvious that some people believe their actions are directed by the Qran when even people like me - non-Muslims - realise it isn't? These problems have to be addressed by Muslims - no extremist is going to listen to me.

But then, it seems, non-extremists don't want to listen either. Too keen to cry bigot.

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