To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

Actually, didn't I hear that the Popes know when the end of the world will come? Didnt the vrgin mary make these revelations to some children?

nailak - Going back to khimar: That was a sheet of cloth desert people used to protect themselves from sun & sand. Quran says to cover your bosom and valuables with it so you won't get into trouble, which is fair enough.

What it does not say is that you have to cover your hair with a similar cloth even if you live in central London - i.e. no sand and certainly very little sun. And the khimar of today is tight around the face and completely covers everywhere else, so it is certainly not the khimar of 1400 year ago (if it were, there would be no need to tell people to cover their bosoms with it).

What Quran definitely does not say is "cover your faces". So the veil and the burqa are completely unnecessary and even inexplicable.

Good post cote.

A lot of my Ismaili friends practice a more moderate form of Islam and do my recognise a lot of the covering of face, etcetc. They are shunned by the Muslim community as being non-Muslims!!!

Therefore I argue that honour killing and the other extreme forms of customs are not religious but are cultural.

"brycie, there you go again. Petty arguments, taking things out of context, personalising things. I really can't be bothered to cut and paste to give you focus and a personal argument."

Doesn't work Silibili. I've tried to talk about the central question, honour kilings and Islam, the whole time. In the face of random cries of racism, ignorance, how many Muslims do you know, I've lived in a Muslim country for years, my Dad lives in America, there are lots of niqabs near where I live, what do you even know about the Crusades, etc etc, irrelvant nonsense.

When you cry bigotry or racism or ignorance YOU personalise it. YOU are calling names. Now back it up or withdraw it.

Or perhaps you've withdrawing yourself because you know you CAN'T back it up and are just randomly flinging around insults.

It's pathetic.

And by the way - not all fundamentalist Christians murder doctors who carry out terminations. Very many are moderate and kind.

Does that mean those fundamentalist murders in the name of Christianity have nothing to do with religion? Of course not, why, that would be a stupid thing to suggest. Does that mean the Church should have nothing to say about such dmanable acts? Of course not, why, that would be a stupid thing to suggest. Does that mean there's no role for Christians to speak out against these murderous people? Why no, that would be a stupid thing to suggest.

If you really can't see the parallels - you are, let me see, let's get personal -wilfully ignorant.

I would cover my hair and face (most likely shadow from a wide brimmed hat) in a hot and dusty climate - not getting burned and sandblasted face is sensible.

I did see an arab girl on the bus recently with hair covered, black covering... But it was more like a gown and she was diaplaying a huuuge clevage (quite impressive one actually) and not attempting to cover it at all. Others I see wear short wraps, covering all over in an a-line, but waist length over skin tight jeans and killer heels. These are more likely to be wealthy women from the ME (we are in central London). I do find that quite interesting from a dress/cultural pov.

I think we all need to recognise the fact that atrocities are carried out (and have been since the year dot) in the name of religion. Saying 'well it's not what the religion says' is skirting the issue.

People of all religions do this! For every mullah preaching murder and harted, you can match with a priest/preacher, rabbi..... And this will never change unless the majority protest, object, educate and scream scream scream from the rooftopf that these people are wrong. We do not want our children to fall into their hands and be turned into something we do not recognise or have sympathy for.

Am I being aLl bossy and preachy? Sorry about that!

Gosh it's SO much easier to talk about face covering than family murder.

brycie, you really do need to stop jumping up and down! Calm down dear!

I will give you some focus!

You seem to be arguing that honour killings are a part of Islam. From what I have read of you very articulate () posts, you seem to suggest that it's written in the Muslim holy books that one needs to kill their daughters if the honour is tainted.

There are many many voices on here trying to educate you to say, this is NOT what Islam says. It is not in the Kuran. It is cultural. It is due to lack of education. It is due to control by men of women. It is due to poverty. Etc etc.
some people have also mentioned that this happens in parts of Sikhism, and Hinduism. Specially in low education areas.
But you are not listening!!! You pick one word out if context and keep repeating the same thing.

Geeees!!!

"Saying 'well it's not what the religion says' is skirting the issue. "

This is what Cote, Silibili, cresent have been doing the whole thread.

I agree with a lot of your post, disagree with some of it.

This thread is back from a parallel universe, thank goodness.

There are many texts in the Quran that support violence, Muhammed himself said a woman should be stoned for adultery, beaten etc. This has to add up to the believer thinking it's Allah's will, surely?

"You seem to be arguing that honour killings are a part of Islam. From what I have read of you very articulate () posts, you seem to suggest that it's written in the Muslim holy books that one needs to kill their daughters if the honour is tainted."

Well you can't have read my posts then. So do you withdraw the accusation of bigotry? I have never said any such thing.

Because these people want to be 'good' Muslims, and so wouldn't kill their children if they were to feel the wrath of Allah...surely they would feel ashamed?

Withdraw, Silibili, and read other people's posts before you fly off randomly insulting people for things they didn't say.

And Cote you can withdraw the accusation of bigotry as well. Pathetic.

No brycie, I won't withdraw.

What will you do?!

When you put forward irrational illogical arguments and then insist on arguing the same thing again and again is a form of intolerance of views different to your own (meaning of bigotry).

What made you think that I was talking about you?

If the shoe fits, feel free to wear it, though.

X post cote

Calls of bigotry and ignorance are simply to silence and stifle debate, often I think it works.

Perhaps if there were much less hand wringing we'd all be in a better place.

When someone kills their child in the belief that murder is better than shame one has to look at the cultural and religious roots, as culture is simply the sum of beliefs and values within that group I think it's obvious that religion plays a part.

Cote - the fact that you posted directly after me?

Silibili - ok back it up. Find an illogical argument (you won't). Find an example of bigotry (you won't).

The fact that you can't - the fact that you think I said something that not only I didn't say, but I actually contradicted - demonstrates that you really ARE wilfully ignorant. You don't even want to read what people say - you want to accuse them of bigotry and racism in a knee jerk reaction.

"on arguing the same thing again and again is a form of intolerance of views different to your own (meaning of bigotry). "

This is just piffle. I've asked you a question and you refused to answer. so I've asked it again. I've asked it about four times. It's a question about what this thread is about. Why are you here if you don't want to talk about it?

posie, I agree however, to argue it is religion and only religion is false too. No?!

Specially when you have proof it is greater than religion and is regional and spans several unrelated religions?!

Yes Posie - I agree with you completely. It's actually frightening.

But that culture has evolved with the specific religion at it's core, for over a thousand years.

When it happens here in the UK, you cannot blame culture as it's part of our culture, it's specific to a group that is forged through religion.

Sorry NOT part of our culture. We like to kill women and children for different reasons, usually control, not shame.

Going back to what I was talking about with Sili - Honor killings are not in the Quran, therefore they are not part of Islam. Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed and is all you need to know to be a Muslim (so it says on many occasions).

What some people on this thread can't understand (because their "knowledge" is limited to DM, ex-Muslims, and Google) is that an "honor killing" in some remote village happening maybe once a year among tens of millions of Muslims does not mean that it is mandated by the religion. If it were, there would be tens of thousands of honor killings per year within that same population.

It means that some people are ignorant fools.