To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

After living in a muslim family for over twenty years I can say it is not religion. And we have some heavyweight theologians a bit further back in the family tree.

All the women are highly educated and working. None wear the veil (only headscarves under sufferance back home). Actully one does but she is the muslim equivalent of Ian Paisley. They love music and literature, and have a good old boogie in fancy frocks at parties (seperate from the men though). All of the young people go to America as they believe their country is run by fools who have destroyed their culture by pushing their own interests via a hardline interpretastion of Islam (which a hell of a lot of people see as a foreign and alien thing). The people who embrace it are those in power and the very poor. I asked one family mem$ber if she knew of a "progressive" branch of Islam. She said that there is none - yet.

I prefer to discuss religion with people born and brought up in a religious setting. 'Born agains' and enthusiastic converts are a pain in the proverbial (in any religion).

"I think it's pretty foolish to explain away some customs as culture and some as religious when the two are so entwined."

Female circumcision = culture
The exact way to perform the prayers = religious

It is easy to see the difference when you know both the culture and the religion.

Of course, for you, these boundaries are blurred.

What is "foolish" is to pass judgement on such things when you know neither the cultures nor the religion in question to any meaningful depth, but hey ho...

Yes there is a connection, people try and justify the unjustifiable parts of their culture using religion, like widows burning themselves alive coz there is no life after husbands death etc.

Some parts of culture transcend different religions, if you read the link from India it is clear Hindu honour killings are as much of a issue as muslim ones.

Are we going to then say Islam has issues and Hinduism has issues which are different and seperate which lead to the same thing, or are we going ti say it is the shared attitudes of the shared culture of that region and shared language which includes concepts such as izzat in the language which leads to the result of honour killings.

For me.culture and religion are not entwined.

Culture is the way I dress at home, language, food,

May I also say that I am frankly flabbergasted to find myself on the side of fundamental Muslims on this thread

It takes a special kind of bigotry and ignorance to achieve that, and I salute you for it.

Cote. I just think you like to sound as if you have some overwhelmingly knowledge and are pretty patronising and unpleasant about it, but hey ho....

Boundaries are not blurred for me, they are blurred. You think a Somali women subjects her daughter to FGM for culture and not religion, now she may well be wrong but she does it for God. (of those I've spoken to)

And the Burka? And isn't it a little funny that some women wear hijabs and some don't (both religious and cultural)? You cannot say when particular practices of a culture are born out of religion that the two are entwined.

I don't get it postie, if fgm is relgious then why don't south Asians etc do.it?

And do non Muslims in the regions where fgm is practiced also do.it?

Like I said they need to be educated that what they do is against Islam and Islam preaches against it, Islam is the tool to stop them doing these things.

No, I didn't say FGM was religious we all know it's not, still in some parts it is done in the name of X religion.

And only in Afghanistan do people wear burkha. No where else in the world.

Yes so I would say instead of Islam being the problem, education about what Islam really says about these things would be the solution

Culture is the sum total of beliefs and actions of a group of people, if those people are predominantly X religion then it goes without saying the culture will be like X religion.

I don't think the women at my local Tesco are from Afghanistan.

That an ignorant Somali women is aware of the distinction between religion and culture is irrelevant. The fact is that this distinction exists.

Another fact is that claiming it is "foolish" to make this distinction makes you look stupid and thoroughly ignorant about both the religion and the various different cultures it is practiced in.

You find me patronizing because you don't like being told that you come from a place of ignorance. That must be tough for you but that is the extent of my sympathy for such loud-mouthed, prejudiced, and arrogant ignorance.

HTH.

nailik, I can see that you are a peaceful and compassionate human being from your, often, kind and patient posts. I know that you believe, and possibly all you know, see Islam and a peaceful and positive religion. I genuinely think when things, terrible things, are done in anyone's name or there are common elements to a particular evil one must look within to find a solution. Blame has to land at the door of whatever group is committing the crime.

For example, when the Catholic church produces a whole lots of paedophiles that were able to hide behind God, the Catholic church becomes accountable. When men use power in Police or Government to get to children we must look at how and lay blame at the structures they used to their advantage.

I don't think Islam, as a rule book and way of life, is exempt.

I do agree with Nailak (listen to her, she is a smart lass).

You can't lob all of one religion under the same spotlight. Islam is a relatively 'new' religion without a Pope of QE2 to head all the strands.

What do you think people in Saudi, or Afghanistan or Pakistan regions (yes I know my history) did before it became the main religion? Sit aroud twiddling their thumbs? No. In some places girl babies were taken out and left to die. Women were captured and traded like animals - they were kept hidden to stop them being 'stolen'. Not religion, but culture. Just like - find the southern English a bit odd sometimes.

When I see parents in the dock for murder, or braying mobs at a public execution it is something that is just so alien and vile to me (and all of mine). I don't think 'oh thats those muslims at it again', I think 'I'm glad I don't live within a hundred miles of that load of loons'.

The muslim parents in Birmingham (I think) who starved their ddaughter to death were not cast as nasty evil muslims, but sad, crazy nutjobs who murdered their child. Victoria Climbe was murdered by religion - and there has been no doubt about that, or any other 'witchcraft' trials. Where I am going - lost my train of throught a bit there...

I do understand the "It's batten down the hatches all hands on deck we are under seige" mentality however don't agree that this is what is happening here. There are coutries which have made a point of iscolating themselves and the people are still treated like crap - nothing to do with nasty 'Others', but more to do with politics.

Like the old joke: if a Jew tells a Jewish Joke, he's a comedian, if a Catholic tells a Jewish joke, he's a bogot. Joke told to me by a Jewish boss.

Ah and there's no link between religion and culture? Ah, I see. Shit you'd better tell all the fuckwits at Uni that study them together as there's no relation at all. Those pesky Christians that even Dawkin agrees have shaped our culture. And all those cultural practices that fit neatly into religion and vice versa.

You have spoken to women who support fgm really. Strange it is a subject that is very rarely spoken about within or outside of communities. It is just not about.

and you have answered your own question when the catholic church covered up abuse the church had to answer for this. The church not every catholic on why they are catholic when some Catholics abuse children and hide behind their religion

Cote. Was that a complete sentence? The personal attack, only it doesn't make any sense. Seriously have you ever even lived in the UK?

HTH

fgm is just not spoken about

I didn't say I'd spoken to women that support FGM. I said I knew of women that think it's Islamic. I've spoken to Somali women AGAINST FGM who are actively fighting it.

That's the problem about FGM, many deny it even happens.

It wasn't just that the church covered it up, it was why and how it happened so much by Priests. There needs to be acute scrutiny into the life of a Priest and why this profession lends it self to so many paedophiles.

Of course thers a link...

But it like giving 100 people an asprin - they won't all have the same reactions to it, will they? Religion casts a net over races aned cultures, but cannot eradicate what is beneath (the culture). So a Eatholic Easter procession has the followers in the black KKK style coverings, followere bartefoot and I even saw some men whipping themselves. Where in the bible did thay all come from? Certainly didn't happpen in my corner of Glasgow.

If there is a culture of violence and mysogeny it won't be wiped out by an outsider trotting up and saying 'God says no' will it? Those in power will look to the holy books to reinforce what they believe.

So there's a link. That's all we're asserting. That there is a link.

Poise, I think you don't even know what burkha means.

The woman at tesco and myself wear abayah or jilbab not burka!

I said there is a link between religion and culture. The link is the patriarchy use religion to try and justify the unjustifiable. But the root cause of the injustice such as fgm or honour killings is not the religion but the culture.

Postie you said something about common elements. Well to me the common element between muslim, Sikh, Hindu and Christian honour killings in India is the culture.

And blame lands on the community, which includes all religions.

not what your post implied Posie. I am surprised you talk to any Muslims when they are so hostile

I have some understanding of what the problems are that is what has been said over and over again through some on here can not see a biggere picture they can not see the other problems in these countries and want to blame religion a religion they know little about