To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

I haven't seen any bhurkas but see plenty of gold masks (which do creep me out because masks of any kind always have).

Some muslims I know look upon these masks as unIslamic as they believe that they ought not adorn themselves in precious metals or stones. Onbviously not an issue in Saudi - we have a lot of Saudis aroumd here who wear black robes with their pasty white (heavily made up and pale than me!) faces at the top and their sparkly Jimmy Choos (or whatever a fancy shoe maker is - I dont know) peking out at the bottom.

Religon is nothing more than Fairy Tales as far as I'm concerned, and I wish people would stop killing because of it!

Little....people don't kill because of it! They kill because of ignorance, fear and greed. They just use their supernatural gobbledegook to justify it!

people don't kill because of religion, they kill because they want power.

what gold masks? can you link a pic?

So Jihad is not religious?

And the other religious texts that ask believers to kill is culture or man?

And I know what a burka is and a niqab. I've seen a huge rise in these in my city. Although thankfully not as many as in some parts. I am also familiar with the Al-Amira, Shayla, Hijab, Khimar and Chador.

And I find the community closed and the clothing tribal and therefore would usually feel that a Muslim wouldn't want to mix, and I think I'm right.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=muslim+face+mask+gold&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_QqdUN3_LcSo0QWc5YHgCg&biw=1024&bih=672&sei=JgudUIXLHNGA0AWW24GICg#biv=i|40;d|R54J9lZJkAaJJM:

It's not a good pic but I can't find many on google (and i can't see taking shots in the street will go down very well).

yes some muslim communities are closed, to other Muslims and non muslims. I know a sister who has moved to South London and has been finding it very difficult to integrate herself in to the Muslim community there because of ethnicity and language etc. Again this is due to cultural factors such as ethnicity and language!

Personally my friends are of all races and religions, covering doesnt change that. A lot of the closed communities involve people who dont cover.

I have seen women wear niqaab but never seen a woman in a burqa. I don't know any women who wear it. I have never seen it sold in shops or online.

Jihad is from Islam. We are commanded to be peaceful with those who do not prevent us from practicing our religion and hound us out of our houses, but to fight back against those who do. Defensive jihad is a command on us to protect ourselves.

offensive jihad can only exist when there is a khilafah, the purpose is to protect the state and the citizens of the state.

Oh, I am back again as some rational posts here. Namely from cotes.

You will find that in Islam, or the people who practice Islam, the culture is based generally on the region they come from. So an Indian Muslim will have traditions closer to the general Hindu Indian population than then say the wahabee form in Saudi Arabia.

As for the burka, Nolan, chador etc. I really don't care what you call it. When you wear it in London, it to me means you are hostile to my British culture.

It's the hiding of face that is scary. I don't have a problem with scarfs and full body coverings.

I dont like face coverings (all masks give me the willies) - or all over coverings (and that includes high-nuns too) but that is my cutural stance! Its like in some countries wearing sunglasses is seen as bloody rude.

I met a recent convert to Islam at a kiddie class. She'd been a catholic and was now very high church/frum/not sure what the correct term is. A northen catholic became a northen African (married a Moroccan, who didnt want to live there and preferred the UK).

She wore full coverings from head to toe, including gloves and thick socks in hot summer. She said that she had to give away her 'filthy' dog as it was unIslamic, and used to say what a horrible heathen ungodly country this was. She was planning to home school her daughter as she didn't want her to be mixing with - well, us lot, really. She was a nice enough persoin but I am not sure where she was getting her info from! I suspect she only engaged with me because I didnt challenge or judge, but asked her about why she thought this.

She turned against her family, community and birth faith and adopted not only a new religion but new culture.

It reminds me of a concert I went to of traditional Indian music. One very pale english chap turned up in Indian dress with his Indian wife and her parents. I overheard her say 'I tried to talk him out of coming in this, this costume! He looks rediculous, but he wouldn't listen and went out and got it himself. He isnt bloody Indian for god's sake!'. Its what a lot of people were thinking.

Not sure what jihad has got to do with honor killing.

Also still unsure why someone has to make what someone else wears all about them.

"When you wear it in London,
it to me means you are hostile to my British
culture."

Why?
Why is British culture the solve preserve of you to decide what is or isn't hostile to it?

What if that person is British to and they feel they're not being hostile?

Why are you choosing to overlay a negative meaning onto what someone else is choosing to do?

Not sure what jihad has got to do with honor killing.

Also still unsure why someone has to make what someone else wears all about them.

"When you wear it in London,
it to me means you are hostile to my British
culture."

Why?
Why is British culture the solve preserve of you to decide what is or isn't hostile to it?

What if that person is British to and they feel they're not being hostile?

Why are you choosing to overlay a negative meaning onto what someone else is choosing to do?

Perhaps GAG you need to read the thread as opposed to select one post out of context. Although it doesn't serve your purpose, which is why you haven't.

And I think that what groups or individuals do can have an impact upon us all, I certainly think hostility falls upon those that cover and, as it's extremist, it affects the whole group.

So the full covering seen as a political statement, cultural or religious? Maybe it's intent? If a woman chooses to cover (religious reasons, tradition, or sumggery even - 'I'm far more holy than thou'...) that is one thing, for it to be as a barried/rejection of 'other', is anotger, but for her to be pressurised/bullied into it is yet another.

I think all or one, tbh. I think any uniform (unless forced) symbolises something. I dress in a modest way, always have, but that's because I wish to communicate a certain something to people. I don't see why any other dress would mean anything else.

But why does "hostility fall on those who cover" and isn't it then the fault of those feeling the hostility?

As for that extending to the group, you are just making excuses for hatred and bigotry. Again.

Hostility also falls on those who don't cover enough/the right way in some places. To be pulled up by some spotty youth old enough to be your son and threatened with a police cell because a lock of hair is showing is no bloody picnic either. But that is not a matter of choice.

GAG. Bigotry really?

So you see no issue with women covering GAG?

What about women stripping?

Thanks for that cresent. I hope that woman is still alive and in (relative) freedom. But it does make me think that she has no choice but to live her life that way, aren't her 'sisters' that choose similar chains laughing in her face? Wearing a Niqaab or Burka in the UK when so many 'sisters' are oppressed by it seems rather unsisterly.

(from comments)

In Iran recently several women rounded on one of the 'moral guardians', beat him up and stole his trousers. Those guys are like the Red Guards - powed mad bullies.

My position is no women should be forced to cover or uncover.

To force a woman to cover her hair or face (as happens in Saudi) is as repellent as forcing her to uncover either (as used to happen in Tunisia and Syria).

Posie - my issue with stripping is from my wider antipathy towards the sex industry and it's abusive practices towards the women who work in it. IMO, stripping is an abusive form of work, a niqab is a garment someone choses to wear.

we are not in Saudi,

None of us endorse the Saudi regieme.

We are in the U.K, how does covering make you against British culture?

I am a british girl born and raised, a few years ago I decided to wear hijab and abayah, so am I no longer British enough? I am the same person. If I am not British what am I? if British culture is not my culture what is my culture then?

and there doesnt have to be hostility against those who cover.

I agree it is hatred and bigotry.

If women are wearing mini skirts, I don't act hostile towards them if women don't cover I am not hostile towards them.

I mean a few years back I wore mini skirts and didn't cover!

and yes I do want to communicate something by the way I dress. I wish to be judged by my actions. and people do judge me for my actions. I am a full and active member of my community, I am school governor, on children's centre advisory board, working with maternity liason commmittee, I just organised an Eid funday for the whole community to attend here www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151281314206215.515568.575406214&type=1&l=b61a88882f, shall I carry on?

people seem to appreciate the things I do and effort I put in, although when they say so I just say alhamdulillah, I am not after the praise, the point is I don't feel hostility. Community is important in Islam, our neighbours have rights over us, non muslims have rights over us and I strive to bring the community together and it works. I do it for the sake of Allah, to please Him alone. Also it makes a better place for us all to live in.

Posie, women are forced to have sex every day, does us having sex laugh in the face of those who are abused?

because someone is forced to do something somewhere, doesnt mean someone else cant choose to make the choice to do it elsewhere.

It's not about the covering of body. It's about the covering of face that I find hostile.

And I feel it is mainly Pakistani women who do this the most in London. The reasons may be:

1. New found zeal for wahabee form of Islam. (That practiced in Saudi Arabia).
2. Pressure from family.
3. They have not brushed hair or done makeup so it's easy to 'hide'. (Yes, I have Pakistani friends who have given this reason).
4. They really do think they are too attractive to be showing their face. Keep the allure...
5. Because they don't want to communicate with anyone.

I was travelling once from Europe into uk. The train broke down. So I was stuck for hrs. The girl sitting next to me was from Saudi Arabia. She did not have any hijab or anything on her person that made her stand out to say she is from the Saudi. (If u r reading this and recognise me, hi!) I had such an enlightening and wonderful conversation with her. She was smoking, wearing a tight t shirt and jeans and expensive heals. She wanted to fit in. Saudi women are fighting this oppression of dress, ban on driving etc. she was travelling to London to promote/open up a business for haj tourism.
It is people who are uncomfortable with who they are that pick up the extra zeal for these things.

Like someone before me described the white guy in Indian dress at a music concert.