To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

It is still a reason we can be granted a divorce in this country what business is it to have to give a reason

When quoting from the Koran it must be borne in mind the abrogation of earlier verses by later ones.

"In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed?s headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses."

Oh my goodness. There are stil people denying there is a link.

This is dangerous and complacent. Not to say wilfully blinkered. How on earth is this going to be addressed if not through Muslim community leaders, in the end? No one wil lidten to outsiders. They'll just think we're heretics. So - what? I think the only people in the whole world who deny a connection between Islam and honour killings must be on this thread.

"I also think that the British like to label everything and segregate it"

How ironic. A vast and vapid generalisation accusing people of .... generalisation.

A spouse seeking divorce in the west on grounds of adultery is going before the civil authorities. The attitude of the civil court is OK, dealbreaker there, rubber stamp. There is no question of 'sin' or the judgement of a religious leader.

And the idea of 'dishonour' vs 'honour' that CrescentMoon explicitly posted there is not part of the picture in the civil courts. The idea that honour is something really, really important shines right through the text CM quotes. It is the whole point of having the witnesses trot out with their testimony, for or against. The idea of honour being important is very strongly implied by that verse.

What on earth is the point of quoting vast swathes of the Qran to us. Why don't you go and preach to the Muslims carrying out these crimes?

Oh - because it's nothing to do with their religion?

x posted math

and what about the testimony in these hearings - a woman's voice worth half that of a man

this is appeasement pure and simple, I'm pretty disgusted

Appeasement is what we have done in the West for the past couple of decades. The Left climbed into bed with the Islamic fundies and they threw their feminist sisters to the wolves. Tragic really.

The point is that to prove adultery is not one person against another. No I do not agree a womens word is worth half a mans but still if you read more about Islam read the Koran you may still fond injustices but you will also learn that the fundemantal Islam is not true Islam but many want to ignore this

Religious men using religion to manipulate and but fear in people goes on every where along with cult leaders it is about power

I've just come back from a meeting on safety for girls in schools(a joint run thing by Fawcett and EVAW) , in that meeting an amazing group called Integrate who were Muslim, second generation Somali as far as I could gather. They say that their culture deny that this happens and as such more girls are at risk.

I think this is the same as honour killings, people deny that it even happens due to Islam and so girls continue to be murdered. Until the communities accept that there are roots in Islam they have blood on their hands.

I cannot believe people are so hell bent upon Islam being naff all to do with it.

You can't not agree. It's true. It's been made part of the law in a non Islamic ahem country like Egypt.

Anyway Freudian I don't need to read the Koran to know that it's wrong to kill members of your family, and to recognise that a great many people do this in the mistaken belief their faith requires it.

I am disgusted at the number of people who stil deny this. By denying it you are part of the problem.

Crescent: anyone who denies any connection with Islam is part of the problem. Do you deny it?

Freudian --
The point is that to prove adultery is not one person against another.

And the point of ensuring that does not happen is to preserve the honour of the accused.

Honour is really, really important in Islam.

One thing that came through is when abuse is occurring we, British people, must not allow it on the grounds of culture, religion etc.

When I think about young girls being groped in British schools (1/3) by boys I lay blame at the door of MTV, lap dancing, entitlement of men and a whole plethora of things going wrong in our society. I find it a little tricky that other communities refuse to do the same. Do you not love and cherish your women?

'...you will also learn that the fundemantal Islam is not true Islam but many want to ignore this...'

Unfortunately, the fundamentalists believe that your brand of Islam is not 'true Islam'. The nature of the religion and how it has developed means that the definition of 'true Islam' is always up for grabs.

Spot the true Islam, LOL!

And why and how does this form of Islam spread this is what I mean by looking at the bigger picture what is happening in these countries and to stop lumping all Muslims together. How many on here have rad the Koran, how many have read or tried to understand the hadiths, how many know or ate Muslim yet over and over again those that are are being told they are wrong

Only Muslims can change as, shown here, if anyone else even comments they are told their opinions aren't welcome.

The Somali Forum in Bristol refuse to engage regarding FGM, as apparently it doesn't happen here!! (20000 girls are at risk every year) This is the honour/face/shame thing, right there.

I don't need to read the Koran to know that honour kiling is wrong. It seems some Muslims do.

Freudian - it is YOU that is lumping all Muslims together. You are defending a big mass "Islam" without accepting that a lot of Muslims do things in the name of their faith which are deplorable. And that those deplorable crimes DO have something to do with Islam.

Stop lumping all Muslims together. Not all Muslims are like you.

not all Muslims are like me what is that meant to mean?

yourself and posie and others have told those on here who are muslim who have a greater knowledge of islam, have lived in muslim countries over and over again what islam is about. no one on here has in any way suported any form of violence

posie you are right these women do not want to often engage with outsiders at first. maybe ask yourself why. they are women who have fled wars they are women that have lived in a society that is terribly oppressed and they are very fearful of strangers. if you had lived the life many of these women (and men) have you would be wary too. dv centres are set up for these women and mainly run by muslim women. these women need support to help make changes happen not told they are wrong and beign attacked all the time. i

I again reiterate. Where the level of education is higher, the freedom for women is greater. The more moderate the belief and tolerant the society, the more you will find higher level of education (Iran before the Khomeini), Afghanistan before the Russian invasion, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt etc. the trouble spots are the poorer less educated areas. Large parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan now, Somalia etc.

Education gets rid of superstition and in humane beliefs. Specially the education of girls.

Its completely down to backwardness, ignorance, lack of general education and cultural practices. My blood turns cold everytime i think about what happened, the actual islamic religion has put so much emphasis on a daughter's rights, her right to be brought up in a safe, nurturing, loving environment, her right to education and to be protected from all harm, she is the mother of future generations after all. People who behave this way are not taught to think any other way and arent following their religion properly, theyre not taught to love, everything rests on 'honour', whether they have to cut their own nose off to prove it.

Actually Freud you're quite wrong. These wonderful campaigners are young Muslim women, one started the whole thing when she was fourteen. Constantly told she was wrong to speak of it BY MEN, it is MEN only on the Somali Forum.

See you contradict yourself, again. Why are there Muslim only refuges? Seriously why? Because of shame and tribalism, bringing shame and admitting that there are serious cracks in the 'perfect' Muslim life means even in desperate situations people preserve Islam.

posie, inly in a desperate situation people remember god. They have lost wealth, maybe health and family. Only common constant thread they have to hand on to their identity is religion. Therefore you see more of the bad Islam behaviour in conflict areas.
Where the level of life satisfaction is greater, people are more tolerant.