To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

Socks=something!!

Hard day today so very tired but this debate is good!!!

traipsing - Good post.

Brycie - I have no idea what that last post was supposed to be saying and you clearly haven't understood mine.

I think Traipsing has summed up the whole thread.....new balls please...

The hijab is supposed to be a barrier. It could not possibly have any other purpose than to be a barrier, against the eyes of other people.

Traipsing, would the gossip be as important if what was gossiped about was not what the religion valued so highly? Surely there is at the very least an overlapping of 'religion' and 'culture' that makes distinctions mere hairsplitting?

Ireland was once a place where this kind of gossip could ruin someone's life and could ruin a family's life. Hence the existence of the Magdalene laundries and the spectacle of families handing over girls to the Magdalene laundries (mentioned upthread many girls were committed by their own parents). The dominant RC church, which was a product of Irish society as well as being a local branch of a world wide organisation with HQ in Rome, focused minutely on 'sins of the flesh' anything to do with sex was considered more of a sin than murder. It was hard to know where religion ended and culture began. Just trying to illustrate my point here.

The OP's question is completely valid as far as honour killing goes. It happens. It happens in Muslim societies. It happens to women in Muslim societies (female victims far outnumber male).

The fact is, many honour killings do happen in Muslim societies or neighbourhoods. Many burglaries happen in Christian or post Christian or Christian sphere of influence countries. Which is worse, stealing a tv or pouring acid on a teenage girl?

The gossip is the point though isn't it? It's gossip about who is the most modest or controlled Muslim, and like math said usually girls. I don't recall too many cases where boys are killed, well unless they're gay and then I suspect they are at risk. The whole idea that women are the gatekeeper to the sin of men is surely linked to honour killings. I don't think it's coincidence that girls should be covered and modest and that they are also those most likely to be killed in an 'honour' killing.

I also find it odd that no poster, who self identifies as Muslim, has anything to say about this and shrugs it off as 'culture'.

Honour killings are not all that common actually but certainly where there are honour killings they exist in a culture that has deemed a woman to be a second class citizen. So you have a generation of men who have been taught that they are superior to women in every way and that a woman is guilty of sin. They seen women are their property, to do with what they please.

This is akin to abuse. Some children who are abused go on to abuse themselves but others do not.

Look at Malala Yousufzai's father. He was born and brought up in a Taliban controlled area and no doubt was fed this propaganda himself yet he choose to become a teacher in a girls school and to encourage his daughter to speak out against the Taliban.

Even in societies like this one, you still get men who see women as property. We have a high level of domestic abuse. Religion really has nothing to do with it. It's the way people are brought up and the choices they make as a rational adult. They use religion as an excuse but if religion was not there, they would still kill. Religion does not turn you into a killer, people do that.

What makes a man take his children and kill them and himself? Just to spite his ex-wife? That happens and yet no-one asks what religion he was.

Sorry, was just replying to OP. There are 16 pages of debate to wade through!

Completely agree RHU about men that kill their kids over here, and we should look at the root causes of that too.

Math you're right. Cote, can you really not understand that fundamentalist Christians killing doctors because they believe their religion requires it, is comparable to honour killings carried out because people believe their religion requires it.

I'm saying - I wouldn't even begin to justify that type of murder, or deny it's connection to Christianity, by saying it's cultural, or because Muslims have killed a lot of people as well, as people are doing here about killings carried out because they consider their Islamic belief requires it.

Of course you understood my post - it was perfectly clear. Quite a lot of it was responding to yours. If you want me to spell it out ABC I will.

The culture of the UK is not one of honour killings. Yet they happen here. In Muslim familes (and I assume, caste/Hindu situations though that is just an assumption).

It is impossible to deny the connection. It is not just "culture". It's culture informed by religious belief. In the way that wearing the niqab is not required by the religion, but informed by religious belief.

Why deny this?

Apologies for the stray apostrophe. I'm tired.

I know many Turkish Muslims and find them to be a tolerant and peaceable people. None of the women wear any sort of veil/headcovering all the time although some elderly ladies wear a simple head scarf on religious occasions. The men are loving towards their wives and daughters although very protective when the girls are young. It isn't Islam at fault but individual interpretations of it.

Yes well not all of them

The Guardian suggests honour killings account for half of Turkey's murders.

Well if some Muslims kill their daughters and some do not what does that tell you. Could it be possibly that the religion is not reason

No it doesn't Freudian. It's not just random, some do, some don't, honour, schmonour. It depends entirely if the honour killings have been informed by the religious beliefs of the murderers. If the shame is too great to bear because of the religious beliefs of the murderers.

Your "well" is very callous. In a country where the population is what, 90 per cent Muslim? (I'm sure someone will correct me), over half of murders are thought to be honour killings. This doesn't even interest or worry you in the slightest does it?

This talks about how honour killings are informed by erroneous belief

If you deny the connection presumably you see no point in websites like this? Which try to explain to Muslim readers (and the wider world) why there is no justification in the Qran? You see no reason for community outreach, appealing for help and working with mosques and madrassas and Muslim community leaders to spread this kind of clarity to congregations who might not understand?

Of course you don't. It's nothing to do with Islam. It's just to do with culture.

If you ignore the connection you can't address it properly. It's collusion, and by closing your eyes you condone it.

Middle East forum

Maybe this will help the denialists.

Who said it does not worry me I work with woman in regards to dv and other issues I take these issues very seriously but I see the bigger picture I will not blame religion because it is not the reason people may use religion but when the vast majority can follow a religion and not commit these crimes which are also crimes agaist Islam how can Islam be blamed

Brycie - websites saying there is no justification in Islam are using religion to overturn/counteract the cultural attitudes.

As you may or may not know, prior to Islam, it was common practice for the desert Arabs to bury their daughters alive. Then Islam came and said this was wrong and good Muslims did not bury their daughters and so the practice died out.

How can posters here claim that honour killings are 'culture' but wearing the hijab is an expression of faith freely chosen?

CrescentMoon, it remains that imams in Canada had to spell out to N American Muslims that honour killing is against the Koran (see earlier link). Clearly there is room for more than your interpretation here. What Islam is to you is not necessarily what it is to some other people.

There are still imams blaming uncovered, immodest hussies for earthquakes. Who follows these men?

So?

A high bar or a low bar -- what business is it of anyone else whether a woman has committed adultery?

The idea that it is anyone else's business is what is so alien here. It is what makes for the dangerous gossip and the fear of the dangerous gossip is what leads to the murder of women. It springs directly from the group identity aspect of the religion. The idea that the community will be involved in policing the sex lives of its members means that Muslims are group members first and individuals a distant second.