To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

[Mooblies]

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

And I don't think anyone should have to kowtow to what Muslims deem offensive, I couldn't give a shit about a film or picture of Muhammed, why should I? It's all made up nonsense anyway.

Cresent do you actually know about the beginnings of Islam? It was very very violent.

Because the women who wear it do so because they think they are required to by Islam. I'm pretty sure they don't do it because they think it's required by Christianity or British law. So I think you'll find it does rather make sense.

!!!!!

It's a strand of Islamic culture. That thing that doesn't exist.

How do you explain British Muslims wearing the veil if it cultural and not part of Muslim culture? And not in Quran?

I don't think the author of the piece on the Ottomans is a beginner either.

Soner Cagaptay is the Beyer Family Fellow and director of the Turkish Research Program at The Washington Institute for Near East Policy... The program conducts important research; hosts Policy Forum luncheons with guest speakers; releases numerous publications in the form of Policy Watches, Policy Notes, articles and opeds; and makes appearances in the media and Congressional hearings. In addition, they have established special programs such as the Turgut Ozal Memorial lecture series, which honors the late Turkish president by helping raise awareness of Turkish policy issues in the Washington community.. He has taught courses on the Middle East, Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe at Princeton University and Yale University. His spring 2003 course on modern Turkish history was the first offered by Yale in three decades. From 2006 to 2007, he was Ertegun Professor at the Department of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton. Currently, he is a visiting professor at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. Among his honors are the Smith-Richardson, Mellon, Rice, and Leylan fellowships, as well as the Ertegun chair at Princeton. In 2012 he was named an American Turkish Society Young Society Leader.

If it's a competition, that is.

Jesus v Muhammed. Jesus is without question a non violent man, Muhammed is not. That was my assertion and also that the very beginning of Islam was incredibly violent and it was difficult to separate war from religion.

the area of Mecca was very violent tribal wars were going on long before Islam came about. And the wearing of the niqab is in some Muslim countries is very rare

There's definitely a protest element to some strands of Islamic culture these days, the niqab being one of them, in my opinion only.

We need to look further back in history for many answers. Culture didnt start at the birth of Jesus or Mohammed. Pre Islam, in the ME there were some cutures that would bury a woamn alive for a crime.

And the food thing - it was a Jewish chap. Just demonstrating beliefs.

Brycie, I agree. Much of the Muslim identity in Britain 2012 is about having a n on western identity and being separate.

Posie - like you know any Muslims in real life, we've been down this road before, you don't.
That's what makes your claims to be conducting "an intelligent" debate so laughable.

I am sad for any Muslim poster on MN. This thread is shocking and hurtful to those of Muslim faith..

No worse than any other faith, belief or lifestyle choice.

Of course I know fucking Muslims GAG, well those I know are ex Muslims who hate Islam and what they're done to their country (Iran).

It's hard to really know any Muslims when you're not one yourself unless you work alongside them as they don't tend to mix with Westerners unless they have to, where I live. That's what happens when one self identifies with a huge religious symbol, it means a barrier before you even start.

Oh and then there's the lady, who I nearly forgot, from Somalia who was upset because the men at her mosque scorned her for not forcing her daughters (3&5) to wear a hijab. And there's also a parent (white Brit convert) who has trouble with Muslims ignoring her daughter at the Mosque and shunning her because her daughter is profoundly disabled.

But no you're right I don't know any Muslims.

If we look at some European history prior to religious control (I think or North Africa) we find a society that held women in high esteem and had no war for 1500 years.

Ah Iranians... Generally they do see Islam as a 'forced' foreign religion (initially and later, as Khomani was Pakistani).

They see themselves as Persian first, muslim/whatever second - distinct seperation. They look back, not with rose tinted glasses, but to a time when everyone was 'brother and sister'. It really was a beautiful country of light, culture, education and beauty - Persian - not Western or Arab. People I know there are desperate to leave - both people who remember pre-revolution and people born afterwards.

Some western cultures did revere women if you go back far enough. - bringers of life and all that. Sadly christianity and the whole Garden of Eden incident made women the cause of mans downfall (oopsy). There is another story there...

Religion in general is shite for women!

Andrew Marr's History of the world is a fabulous resource (and great for ironing to) for well erm The history of the world!!

I don't wearing a hijab to be a barrier, that you do, says a lot about yourself.

I know at least one of the people you mention in your comment, she'd have far more positive things then negative to say about being a Muslim, trust you to twist the facts as always.

Cynner - thanks, but it is nothing new for round here.. Posie in particular has a fixation.

"Of course I know fucking Muslims GAG, well those I know are ex Muslims who hate Islam and what they're done to their country (Iran)."

Ah, so you ONLY know EX-Muslim Iranians who hate Islam.

You don't know Muslims from any other country (which is probably why you think all Muslims have the same culture, called "Islamic culture"

You don't know any Muslims, at all. Just ex-Muslims who now hate Islam, because their country is now ruled by fundamentalist religious fanatics.

Do you really consider yourself knowledgeable enough to come tell people what Islam is and what it isn't around here, every time a thread on Islam comes up? Do you, really?

Goth, no thanks necessary. Religion baiting is nothing but a vicious game played by ignorant people. I think you have been very articulate on this thread.

"It's hard to really know any Muslims when you're not one yourself"

Most people in that situation would listen and learn from people more familiar with the subject rather than bang on about her prejudices. But you are different, Posie.

I know some Muslims, they're from a Love for All Hatred for None sort of sect. Does that mean I'm allowed to have an opinion? Sadly I haven't lived in a country that presumably I'm not allowed to call Islamic nor am I a Muslim . I think some people would rather one just shut up.

I can read though. I read Posie's post as far as this:

"Oh and then there's the lady, who I nearly forgot, from Somalia who was upset because the men at her mosque scorned her for not forcing her daughters (3&5) to wear a hijab. And there's also a parent (white Brit convert) who has trouble with Muslims ignoring her daughter at the Mosque and shunning her because her daughter is profoundly disabled. "

So not all former Moslems who hate Iran.

Cote: I really wouldn't go hinting that other people are ignorant right now. Did you read the article on the Ottomans?

"Jesus is without question a non violent man, Muhammed is not."

So what? Maybe Mohammad learnt the lesson and thought it better to fight rather than die in agony on the cross.

Jesus' unwillingness or inability to fight back didn't make Christianity a pacifist religion, so what exactly is your point?

Who on earth could anything positive to say about a religion that shuns their own daughter????

And Cote perhaps you're finding the rest of my post rather tricky to read as I think I mention two others.

And a hijab is a barrier, if you think it isn't then perhaps noone has been honest enough to say. Any 'uniform' is a barrier to some.

Funny, I think I am rather fixated by Islam and how, on earth, anyone converts in 2012 to a religion that allows them less freedom. I find it fascinating that so many people are left wanting so much so that they use God to fill a void.

I look forward to a world without religion, it will be a much nicer place.

Cote. Perhaps you shouldn't comment on anything regarding the UK as clearly you don't live here and are extremely ignorant about our culture.