to want to drop a foreign friend?

[livingintheeast]

Firstly let me get one thing straight - I am not a rascist and I have a foreign mother (a genuine one not one of those that people sometimes invent just to prove how PC they are). It is a real bugbear of mine that my foreign friend will constantly talk to her lo in their mother tongue. They are both perfectly capable of speaking english - the mother talks to me/my lo in english and the lo talks to me/my lo in english. Personally I find it blooming rude and so irriatating that I'm not sure I want to be around them much at all. Even my lo has resorted to asking me (in her 2.5 year old way) what they are saying - and I don't have a clue! I know my friend wants her lo (also 2.5) to know her mother tongue but surely on a playdate, with english people etc it's just common courtesy to speak in english. AIBU?

I'm British, living in Spain and married to a Spaniard. I speak Spanish to DH but only English to DS (4.5) and DD (1.8). If we're out with other kids I speak English to DS but Spanish to his friends, even if that means saying the same thing twice, once in English and once in Spanish. Nobody has ever seemed to mind. Now I'm worried people are secretly thinking I'm rude. No, actually I'm not worried, come to think of it....it's more important DS learns English. It's hard enough (and English is a "high status" language) and already his Spanish is dominant. We try our best with only English from me and all stories and tv in English, but if I had to reduce his exposure to English from a native speaker (me) any further I don't think he'd use it at all.
i really can't believe she's saying anything you really need to know to a 2.5 yr old. She speaks to you in English, so really not sure what the problem is.

Pipoca- no they aren't thinking you are rude I'm sure

The only vaguely-ignorant comments I get (cue rolly-eyes) are things like "but she's only and she speaks English already!" and "how did you teach her?" and "if my dd plays with your dd will your dd speak to her in English so she learns as well?"

I don't get this whole thing of feeling threatened or uncomfortable because another language is spoken. I never felt that as a child in my friend's Finnish household and I didn't feel it later in our multi-lingual toddler group. How likely is it that this mum will be spending her time sniggering over you with her 2yo? And if not, what is there to feel uncomfortable about?

yy cory

YABU. Also, drop your friend. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who thought my telling my child to "put that down NOW" in home-language was about excluding other people.

I live in England and am raising a bilingual child. We often visit another trilingual family who are Spanish-English-Afrikaans, and have many Spanish-speaking friends, so we only understand about two-thirds of the conversations. The result is that we are learning the Spanish for "put that down NOW", "thank you", etc. I've never felt excluded, only interested. This says more about the dynamics of your friendship and your attitude than the rights and wrongs of bilingual child-raising.

I only speak to my DS in French my mother tongue. If I am out with friends and other kids I still do so but will translate in English for others if it is important.

YABVU and sound a bit jealous and small minded tbh

I am also using OPOL but I actually side with the OP here.

For example if I am with my inlaws I use their language not English because I know they don't speak English well and I do think it is rude even if I am speaking to the kids not them.

I also prefer my husband to use English when we are visiting the UK.

Of course my kids hear me use the local language all the time, to the teacher, the postman, in shops etc. I use English with them, my parents and English-speaking friends. They are fine about it.

I have heard from a lot of people that a bit of flexibility is better long term.

Bleeping - I'm assuming (by your reference to 'teacher') that you're not talking about toddlers. I think that when children start distinguishing between languages it will not harm their language development if you speak the majority language in company and minority language at home. However, toddlers don't understand that there's two languages involved and therefore I find it's important to be consistent. My daughter is already losing her ability to speak in my language as nursery, her dad and her friends all speak English. I'm just trying to keep the comprehension going so she'd be able to talk to her relatives in my country. And looking at her language development it's obvious she needs all the exposure she can get.

"However, toddlers don't understand that there's two languages involved and therefore I find it's important to be consistent."

Again that depends on the toddler. Dd was very aware from a young age. By the time she was 2 you could point at something and ask (in English) "what's that in Swedish" and she would tell you. She knew the languages by their names. She never tried to speak Swedish to any of her friends at English toddler group or to speak English to her Swedish cousins. It would take her seconds to suss somebody out in terms of what language they spoke. (Ds was a lot less flexible.)

I'm still on the side of the OPs friend though. This parenting lark is a tricky business and I think we should all cut each other a bit of slack.

You choose whether you view other people's foreign-ness as positive or negative: you'll do your own children a massive favour if you teach them to view it as positive.

Actually I meant their nursery school teachers. All my kids are young.

I do get how difficult it is. It's hard for me too.

One thing I wanted to mention is that I'm a member of a group for foreign women here and I have heard from quite a few of them that when their kids got older they asked them not to use English in public with them as they felt self-concious being the only ones speaking English. A few have said their kids went thr

Through phases of not wanting to use English at all. It can be hard for kids from mixed heritages. That's why I think a bit of flexibility is ok. Which being bi-lingual is important I think social relationships are also important so I know a lot of parents who for exam

Fucking iPhone!!!

For example refuse to answer their kids unless they talk to them in the correct language or refuse to let them watch tv in the local language. That kind of extreme attitude can often do more harm than good.

So I think the OP's friend can lighten up a little and use English in these situations.

My friend has tri-lingual children.

When the children and their mum are on a playdate, they speak majority language (sometimes English, sometimes Welsh).

When they visit my friend's homeland, they speak German, and my friend speaks German to her children at home a lot. Her DH is Welsh, he speaks Welsh to his children a lot at home.

I don't actually think YABU to expect the playdates to be conducted in ONE language... purely for ease of communication amongst all who are gathered, unless there's some doubt and the mother tongue is used for clarity.

YABU to consider dumping her because she isn't walking and talking that fine bi-lingual line to your satisfaction.

"The moment you start addressing them in the language spoken everywhere around you, they will take this as a cue to always speak the majority language, and when this happens, you can forget about raising your child bilingually."

I don't know any other aspect of parenting that draws down so many categorical statements as bilingualism. You never seem to see "if you don't use the naughty step/potty train them by Supernanny's method/use 1-2-3 magic, you can kiss goodbye to xyz" on Mumsnet. In all other areas, received wisdom is that different families get results in different ways that suit their individual circumstances.

(though I did hear a fair bit of "If you never smack them they will never learn to obey" locally when dd was little, this being that kind of area).

However, I still think that the OPs friend should parent in the way that suits her and her family, and that a real friend should support that.

YABVU. I speak only in my mother tongue English and my children are completely bilingual. We don't live in England. We do attract attention by doing this and alot of curiosity but they speak perfect English which is the utmost importance to me. I can speak and understand their other language so know clearly when it is appropriate to translate, use the native language. I make no apologies for absolutely sticking to English, they are often complimented on their English. DS1 learns English at school as part of the curriculum and the teacher often checks out pronounciation with him. The only problem I ever have is when they speak to me in English and assume no one else can understand and say something like "why does that man have such a big nose?'!!

I certainly don't believe I have been 'dropped' by any friends for doing this.

I expect my friends who are from different countries to speak their language to their children, they usually chat to me in English, and their children in a mixture of languages! I never feel left out, as they always address me in English.

I don't see this as the same as going out with a group and all speaking in the one common language, mother-child interactions are different (I don't say to my friends 'come and put your shoes on' loudly ten times either).

It is hard to bring up billingual children, mine are not billingual, and of my friends and colleagues who are either foreign or mixed culture marriages, few of them have succeeded either, even if they started out with the mother speaking the different language (except where the mother was English in a foreign country or they spend a lot of time in the second country).

YABU. It is hard not to use your mother tongue when talking with your child - it just doesn't feel right.

This is all you need to know imo. It's called mother tongue for a reason, you know! Please let you friend do what comes naturally to her.

Well yes COry, from MY experience

"I could read at secondary school level by three"

This thread gets even more amazing. You mean you were genuinely able to read Jane Austen aged 3?

I'd go against the grain a bit and say that the OP is not being totally U and the friend is being a bit inconsiderate. To all those who have commented sniffily, "what could she possibly be saying to a toddler that you need to understand?" the OP gave an excellent practical example in one of her posts- she told the friend's DC that s/he could do something and the mother said "I've already told him that he can't". Confusion all round and mixed messages for the child.

However it depends whether the friend was annoyed that poor OP had contradicted her or was apologetic when she realised that OP could not have known. It is maybe a bit much to say that the whole scenario is irritating but sounds like the friend needs to think a bit more about making sure the OP is included in anything relevant. That's just adult-to adult politeness.

Interestingly given that the OP had a non on-English speaking parent but was not raised bilingual, and the friend appears to be practising OPOL, you'd think they'd have lots to chat about and each would be interested in the other's experience. Sounds like both are guilty of doing that truly dull thing of interacting only with the toddlers and not bothering to have any adult conversation. Let the kids go off and PLAY, fgs, that's the point of a play date!

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Wed 31-Oct-12 12:51:25
"Well yes COry, from MY experience"

That doesn't mean you can tell anybody else that the first time you do x, you can kiss goodbye to achieving whatever it is. All it means is that this worked/didn't work for you.

My friend felt she could only get her dc to behave by using the naughty step. Doesn't mean that anybody else who didn't use the naughty step had to kiss goodbye to the idea of obedient children, just that individual experiences are different.

I don't get why people are so categorical about this one aspect of parenting and think their own experiences translate into some kind of universal law, when they don't have the same attitude towards other areas.

My potty training worked very well. I don't think this means that all other ways of potty training are doomed. My attempts at sleep training were less successful. I don't think that means noone can get good results by sleep training the way we did.

Dd was probably a few weeks old the first time I addressed her in English. Perhaps the same the first time dh addressed her in Swedish. Nothing momentuous happened on either occasion.