To feel I should point out to a mum that her daughter is clearly on the autistic spectrum?

[StaM]

I run a Brownies group.

An eight year old girl joined us in March. From the very class, i knew she was 'different' from the other girls. She displayed many of the traits my daughter has (who has a diagnosis of ASD - high functioning).

After a few weeks, I talked to the other Leader and she agreed the girl was different but said nothing more of it.

Over the months, volunteers have changed and I'm the only original Leader remaining since the girl started. I've been biting my tongue to say something to the mum, as i obviously didn't want to cause upset/offence. But I've noticed the little girl is seriously struggling socially, and it's not nice to watch.

She acts rather 'pompous; around the other girls. Very grown up, uses large words etc. She doesn't see that she is boring them, or that they are desperate for her to be quiet. The girl will not sit with the others, and opts to sit at the side/in the background. It's seriously like watching my own daughter, and my heart breaks each class for her. She seems really on edge when asked to do a group activity, or anything which involves mixing with the other girls.

I honestly think she could be doing with some assistance/help in social skills like my daughter is receiving. I have an urge every week to take her mum aside at hometime and ask her about her daughter's difficulties, but I don't think her mum would appreciate it.

I've tried talking to the new leader about it, but she's quite old fashioned and doesn't 'believe' in autism ( didn't say this as such though as she knew it would offend me). She basically said 'nothing is on the girl's medical/form, so there's nothing we can do'.

I understand the school would have picked up on this, but as far as i can see, the little girl isn't getting any more relaxed. So I'm not sure whether or not she's already getting help. She definitely needs social skills help. I try and get her to join in, or go and chat with her when she's sitting aside, but she's not interested.

Sorry for the rambling. Just looking for advice. Should I let it be, or should I say something to her mum?

Good post Basf.

Especially the bit about "it should be forbidden to hide concerns from parents".

When I think of all the child protection training I do, and how I have to report if I think a child is being neglected, or if I have any concern about the parents at all, I think it is sad that I'm not allowed to raise a concern about the child to the parents.

I would call the mum (ie do not discuss during brownies) and say that you have noticed that her daughter struggles with x y and z and what can you do to help.

I think its ok to say that your daughter also has social difficulties and gets support from x etc, and that you go to (name of doctor who diagnosed your daughter).

You could also ask if the school have noticed social difficulties.

But do not mention autism / aspergers etc.

Having said all that, I know (as a cub leader) that I am not allowed to approach the parents

So you can't talk to the parents about anything without getting support and advice from higher up the guiding leadership ladder.

Goldmandra "No MadBusLady the OP is concerned that this child could be missing out on professional intervention to help her develop her social skills.
ills."

Yes. I don't think that is a disagreement with what I wrote, is it? That's also what I think the OP thinks should happen.

I was just reflecting on the fact that Vicar's example demonstrates something slightly different happening - the removal of her DS from that particular social arena because it was just making him miserable and was too much. So that strikes me as a different strategy - though of course the two could be used together.

I agree with foreveronadiets approach. I don't believe it is right for someone who is not professionally qualified in education/medical etc and does not have a professional relationship with a child to bring up the possibility of a child having Aspergers.

The OP wasn't planning to intervene though. She was saying that the child maybe should be benefiting from professional intervention as is her own DD.

My understanding is that the OP isn't looking to make changes in Brownies particularly. She's just concerned that there could be lots of support at home and in school that this child is missing out on which could come with an assessment.

I would like to think that any parent who can see something of concern in a child which may not have come to the attention of the parents is able to do so without being laid into and told that they are not a trained diagnostician.

Sadly nobody ever gave me this crucial information about my own DD until serious damage had been done to her mental well-being. Surprisingly several teachers, TAs, club leaders, friends, nurses and relatives have since then felt qualified to tell me that the panel of experts who diagnosed her were in fact wrong and she does not have AS. They all quote evidence with great confidence which betrayed their lack of knowledge and not one has stopped to think carefully about the repercussions of their declarations in the way the OP has in her situation.

My first raw reaction to this post - who are you to diagnose? Yes your dd has a diagnosis. But that doesn't mean you could/should diagnose this dc. Lots of people in all walks of life have difficulty socialising. They feel awkward. It may take them time to get used to people. It doesn't mean they're on the autism spectrum. Shyness comes across as aloofness and it annoys people. Sorry but I really think you should butt out and only answer questions honestly if her parent asks - and not put together theories unless you are qualified to do so.

How does a qualification in education or being paid to be around the child make you more capable of recognising and raising concerns about a child who may have ASD?

Thank you for all of your replies. for those saying she's just quirky or shy, please don't think i'm so naive. i suppose it takes someone who has experience of being around autistic children to recognise evident asd traits in others.

i accept i was being U by contemplating mentioning ASD to her mum, but after some more thought i've realised something has to be said about the little girl. its not pleasant to see her so uncomfortsble each week when i know there's so much help out there for her.

but its not my place to approach this. all i can do is report again to the main leader i work with and insist she says something to her mum. i.e. Mention how she doesn't want to join in - unless its something to do with dogs which she adores!

Sorry for the typos again.

Whereas, Cahoots I would argue it's everybody's duty to flag it up when it's obvious.

I approached a random mum at playgroup a few years ago and told her her boy reminded me very much of mine who has ASD... She told me she had thought of autism indeed, but that she didn't think he had it. Great! At least I said it. I could see he was echolalic, was spending his time laying on the floor looking at car wheels and she was looking frustrated by his refusal to do anything else, so I thought I had to say it. If she'd told me to bugger off I would have understood...

How I wish, like goldmandra , that AS had been spotted earlier in my DS, who I took to see 4 different HVs, several GPs, and who I even took to A&E to say "Look at him! There is something up with him! He's never looking at me! His favourite game is looking inside bins! He's got a bald patch from pulling his hair out! What is it?!" The answer I always got was "No, he is perfectly fine - but are you OK?" (I didn't say that in front of him obviously)

I suppose I'm a bit traumatised, really.

It might not be " right for someone who is not professionally qualified in education/medical etc and does not have a professional relationship with a child to bring up the possibility of a child having Aspergers" but what if no professional ever spots it either, and it stays totally undetected - you seem to assume it will get spotted and it's just the matter of Letting The Professional Do It. It might just never happen! Which is in my view, even more wrong. How exactly will the kind of professionals who have answers (= development paediatricians) ever get involved if nobody raises concerns, considering that so many health professionals lower down whose opinion you value so much and who you think should be doing the flagging up (nurses, GPs and HVs) , know so little about SN/ASD - to the point, as in my case, that even when they are contacted by parents themselves, they can still manage to fail them.

Xpost sorry.
Yes it is difficult, and obviously you have to follow the correct procedure, and can't say anything yourself, I didn't mean to sound like you must say something to the mum, i was talking in general term to other posters.
Good luck x

I agree that it's ok to flag it up but notto mention Aspergers. It is not the right time and I wouldn't want what could be very traumatic news to be delivered by a non-professional. People are trained to do these things for a reason. Yes, suggest you have noticed problems and ask if there is anything you can do to help, but don't go telling people you think their DC has Aspergers when you are not qualified in any way to do so.

The girl that the OP is talking about is 8. I think the parents would have had lots of feedback about her developement from teachers over the course of her schooling. Teachers that would be trained in child development and who would have spent many many hours with the girl and would understand her family background.

"I wouldn't want what could be very traumatic news to be delivered by a non-professional." Or, more likely 1/ if your child was different you would want to be pointed in a direction, no matter how traumatic, because you'd want to understand 2/In fact, it would not be traumatic, it might be light at the end of the tunnel. You are approaching this very much from the angle of a normal child being labelled something outlandish and unexpected... 3/And it wouldn't be 'delivered', because it would not be a diagnosis!! It would be the naming of a condition as a remote possibility in the course of a conversation, and it shouldn't be a big deal. It would be up to you to follow it up or not.

As for "the teachers would have spotted it", a lot of teens and adults are getting diagnoses - these were obviously missed at school, there's no guarantee a teacher would see the bigger picture. They are not necessarily trained as far as I know. They might just be thinking "she's a bit bossy" "in her own world""looks tired and irritable today" . I certainly, in my time attending support group meetings with ASD Specialist Teachers (=those that schools turn to for advice on how to meet the needs of their pupils with autism), have heard from parents many horror stories of schools being told of diagnoses and ignoring them, preferring their own explanation for the child's behaviour. All these parents were trying to get hold of the Code of Practice and see which bit they could use to force the school to take notice of their kid's specific issues- so no, I wouldn't rely on schools for flagging up.

teachers do not give feedback of this kind unless the child is causing a problem in my experience - or they will give feed back in an exasperated way....it was clear that my sons SENCO at primary did not like him at all but steadfastly refused to entertain the idea that he had autism.

in the end, he say OT, physio therapy, SALT, Pediatricians, educations psychologists and clinical psycholgoists, gps, autism nurses, and finally, the famous and wonderful Elizabeth Newson....

without a dx no teacher would have breathed a word to me unless it was to complain about him. i got plenty of negative feedback from his teacher.....when he got a dx, the targets were set, the base line was drawn, the help had to begin, albit unwillingly.

school for these kids is shit on every single level going. as due to that its shit for the parents too.

Sorry, I haven't time to read the whole thread.

This is a tough one because while the correct procedure is to say nothing, the reality is that this little girl could go through her entire childhood without getting any of the help she might need/always wondering why she feels different/offending people without realising etcetera.. All because no one is allowed to suggest anything. Parents of children on the autism spectrum are always hearing about the importance of early intervention, so I can see why the OP would feel a sense of duty for the well-being of the little girl.

Yes, Vicar - If the girl doesn't have significant behavioural issues in a classroom context, and in mitigation has a good vocabulary and high reading age, the teachers may well just focus on the positive aspects without ever wondering why the "little professor" is a bit of a "little professor". They may never look out the staffroom window to see what happens to her at break.

It was a generation ago, and in a different country, but my school reports were full of glowing praise for my academic side, and said nothing about anything else. Similarly teachers were full of criticism for my social sister who wasn't academic, didn't seem to have any theory of mind at all, and used an endless stream of boyfriends to shore up her self-esteem because that's what our mother thought she should do.

But there were clearly teachers who noticed the differences - I can remember being asked probingly if I wanted to play with the other kids, many times, by one perceptive teacher when I was 5-6; another one placed puzzling importance on me joining a hockey team when I was a teenager, that I didn't understand at the time.

If only someone had put together the pieces of the puzzle.

Also the 'only professionals are qualified to say anything', really does show how this country is changing for me. You are always meant to MYOB, turn a blind eye etc. We are a community for god's sake and interact in each other's lives all the time.

basef and vicar make very good points.

The majority of teachers are extremely underqualified to recognise signs of Autism and many are dismissive when parents who have correctly identified the sings on their own child raise the matter. I really don't understand why some people think it would be inappropriate for a Brownie leader to raise concerns in an appropriate manner but fine for a teacher.

If the opinions of their teachers had been heeded, my girls would be in a very bad way now.

Children with HFA often work incredibly hard, at a high cost to their well-being, to cover their symptoms and fit in at school. It takes a very experienced and skilful practitioner to see the subtle signs in these children and recognise them for what they are. Few teachers have these skills but to many parents of children who have a diagnosis they are obvious.

In this sort of case the teacher may be the paid professional but the OP is the person with the knowledge and skills to flag up a potential issue and possibly point the parents in the right direction to get essential and life-changing support for their child.

SoSo right. We are a community and it takes a community to raise a child.

I agree that many children with AS are missed at school.

Especially girls. Because they tend to be quieter and better behaved and work incredibly hard to "fit in".

But it is very stressful for all children with AS and HFA to fit in at school, and they tend to become more and more unhappy.

I was never told about ds1s strange behaviour - his obsessions, his sitting under a table, his crying for no reason, his inability to answer "what if" type questions, his difficulty in being flexible. I was only ever told about his "bad" behaviour, his over-activity, his "lying" (which was actually telling the absolute truth a lot of the time", his inappropriate conversation (again telling the teachers the truth), his refusal to apologise etc.

I still think it is sad that many parents would be more inclined to be upset and angry at the suggestion their child needed help rather than grateful that someone, anyone, was concerned enough about their child to raise the issue.

But you only have to read threads on here to see how bitter some parents can become at the mere suggestion that their child needs help.

when i started my job, i started along side a 34 yr old woman who i knew within 2 weeks had dyspraxia and AS.....the rest of the group mercilessly took the absolute piss out of her, leaving her tearful and confused. This went on for weeks, and she became more and more dependent on me for companionship and help - i used to dress her and do her hair.

as it became more and more obvious, i, and one of the trainers, who both have experience of knowing/living with people with the conditions, took her to one side and had a word.

she got assessed (at works insistence) and diagnosed at the age of 34. She found it incredibly difficult to accept to start with, but had she known when she was younger, would she ever had tried to go for a totally and clearly unsuitable career? she was an absolute liability as a police officer - no personal safety awareness, no boundaries, saying innapropriate things to other officers and victims, she coudlnt use handcuffs, or personal safety equipment, it was a car wreck and so so sad to watch.

she was let go after the first 6 months and is very bitter about it.
i think if she had known years ago, it would have helped her, and she says now she is glad she was diagnosed, and her sister is going through assessment, along with her 2 nephews.

sometimes, intervention really is needed for the wellbeing of that person in the middle of it.

Poor woman, vicar :(

I only really became aware of my own difficulties (AS, and some mild symptoms of dyspraxia and ADD) when I started my job. Before that as a college student and then a SAHM it was easy to hide away. Getting a job (apprenticeship actually but I then got a permanent contract) in customer service, with a large team of people, was one hell of a shock, and it made me realise how different I was, especially in the staff room. However I was very lucky that my colleagues and managers have been very supportive - so sad that not everyone gets the same caring environment to work in.

I feel for you - a difficult situation. There are however times with ds when I just wanted to imagine that everything was OK and I could really not have coped with someone pointing out problems to me. I knew they were there, but did not always want to face them. Not easy whatever you decide to do.

And as far as not being allowed to say the words Asperger's or autism, why? what terrible harm could it do? I can't be worse than the some poor parents own explanations for their kid's behaviour.

In the days before autism was mentioned, I knew DS had many problems, that was a given, but I had a limited understanding of what they were. I had been googling his 'symptoms' and the only thing I could see was that he must depressed. And there were only 2 causes of children depression I could think might apply - I had got that from the NSPCC website - I thought either I must unintentionally be a shit neglectful mum, or he had been abused by somebody, and I was thinking who have I ever left him with? I had never left him with anybody, so I started to suspect my own close male relatives when they had come to stay over, maybe at night when he was little? I could see I wasn't neglectful, and I was finding it hard to believe my brother and father could have been abusive, but it had to be something causing it?!

And so I had parenting guides, of a psychoanalytical leaning, that were saying that you should let your children be very free of discovering and exploring and interfere very little, so as not to stifle their imagination, and so I thought I've probably been too interfering, and I would take DS for endless walks in the park where I'd let him free to roam ( and where I'd try not to get too frustrated when it would always turn out he'd just want to stay at the entrance and open and close the park's little gates to hear them creak).

Now imagine my relief when I heard about autism!

Xpost Goosey - I know what you mean... not easy indeed...