To feel I should point out to a mum that her daughter is clearly on the autistic spectrum?

[StaM]

I run a Brownies group.

An eight year old girl joined us in March. From the very class, i knew she was 'different' from the other girls. She displayed many of the traits my daughter has (who has a diagnosis of ASD - high functioning).

After a few weeks, I talked to the other Leader and she agreed the girl was different but said nothing more of it.

Over the months, volunteers have changed and I'm the only original Leader remaining since the girl started. I've been biting my tongue to say something to the mum, as i obviously didn't want to cause upset/offence. But I've noticed the little girl is seriously struggling socially, and it's not nice to watch.

She acts rather 'pompous; around the other girls. Very grown up, uses large words etc. She doesn't see that she is boring them, or that they are desperate for her to be quiet. The girl will not sit with the others, and opts to sit at the side/in the background. It's seriously like watching my own daughter, and my heart breaks each class for her. She seems really on edge when asked to do a group activity, or anything which involves mixing with the other girls.

I honestly think she could be doing with some assistance/help in social skills like my daughter is receiving. I have an urge every week to take her mum aside at hometime and ask her about her daughter's difficulties, but I don't think her mum would appreciate it.

I've tried talking to the new leader about it, but she's quite old fashioned and doesn't 'believe' in autism ( didn't say this as such though as she knew it would offend me). She basically said 'nothing is on the girl's medical/form, so there's nothing we can do'.

I understand the school would have picked up on this, but as far as i can see, the little girl isn't getting any more relaxed. So I'm not sure whether or not she's already getting help. She definitely needs social skills help. I try and get her to join in, or go and chat with her when she's sitting aside, but she's not interested.

Sorry for the rambling. Just looking for advice. Should I let it be, or should I say something to her mum?

as well meaning as you mean to be,no don't broach
if an issue exists this needs to be tactfully negotiated professionals
if unfortunately there is issue,you can support the mum if she wants that

I think you should approach her mother, actually.

I would ask her mother for advice, being sure to approach her because she knows her DD best- explain the problems the girl is having, and ask about any strategies or tips the mother has which could help support her. You could even suggest strategies of your own and ask her if she thinks they would be appropriate for her DD.

This way you open the dialogue and let the mother know that her DD is struggling, but you are not trying to 'tell' the mother anything; you are simply asking her advice. As others have said, this may not be the first time these issues have been discussed with her.

Avoid any talk of ASD or SN and focus on the behaviours she has. The goal is to support her appropriately, and although this may at some point involve a borough advisor and/or referral, it would be inappropriate to open the discourse by discussing it at this stage.

Don't feel silly- you are clearly concerned and haven't rushed in. Those are good qualities to have. Good luck

my DS is in Beavers, and my belief is that the whole point of being in Beavers is to have fun with a group of other children and joining in with all the various activities, and I assume Brownies is the same.

If my DS was struggling in the Beaver group, for whatever reason, I would like the leader to tell me. Surely you could just tell the mother that you have noticed that her daughter seems to struggle in some situations eg party, and discuss with her ways that you may be able to help her, SN would not have to come up in the conversation unless the mother mentions it

StaM

I am a mum to a child with HFA and whilst I can see your worries what I can't understand is why you are doing nothing between observing and wanting to talk to mum.
Yes she has some strong indicators but my mantra is 'Support first, diagnose only when you have to'... So just continue to help her fit in at brownies and leave the diagnosis to school and mum - I would say to mum 'I am doing x,y and z to give her a bit of a hand as she struggling to fit into the group' because if she is needing extra support then you really should tell mum.

One thing though - you haven't put yr daughters diagnosis on a medical form? Really?
Word of caution - my son started a group a few weeks ago and I did write on their form and I check all was ok a few weeks in and all was ok...
It was not! There had been an incident caused by the leader not knowing his needs - luckily the group uses his school and a passing teacher happened to know his diagnosis so got another teacher who knew him better to 'rescue him'.

The school thought the leader had told me, the leader 'forgot' yet it became a risk issue to school which was discussed with the Governors... first I knew was I was being asked if I had informed them!!
I was astounded that anyone would think that I would put him in a situation like that WITHOUT sharing his diagnosis and some tips on what to do.

Now if I go back to that day I had a hideous evening and following few days with him - he has no emotional literacy so didnt say anything so he was left without support and reassurance.

WHY? WHY? WHY go through the trauma of diagnosis if you don't inform those who need to know so they can support them better? I really don't get it... my son is supported really well in mainstream activities through good communication.

Sorry forgot to say - the leader of the group hadnt read the notes on the back of his form hence why he didnt know...

StaM one possibility here is that this girl's parents themselves have undiagnosed HFA, and have no insight into their own or their daughter's "difference".

Practically speaking, I have absolutely no idea on what you'd be able to do in this situation other than give the girl as much help as possible to realise that she and her home life is not "normal".

I grew up with parents on the spectrum, who encouraged me to be very like how you've described this girl. My parents were always telling me that other children were stupid if they didn't have a well-rounded vocabulary, or if they weren't reading the Brontes aged 6, that anyone who liked pop music rather than string quartets and Palestrina must be tone deaf and have no taste, etc. I was the one in a velvet party dress with my hands over my ears at the primary school disco, wanting to have an indepth conversation with the teachers because the children were all so boringly immature. I must have been a total pain in the arse on school camps - I remember someone once asked me to stop humming, and i snobbishly, pompously explained which bit of Beethoven it was that i was humming... on the same school camp someone screamed at me in frustration for using big words, and I smugly felt superior because - as my parents had always said - anyone who gets irritated by someone who uses big words is clearly just a resentful luddite.

Because I am on the ASD spectrum (formally diagnosed aged 33), being the perfect child for my parents came naturally (and the ostracism elsewhere kind of washed over me) - whereas my completely NT sister had a very difficult time indeed, because she was being given idiotic social advice by parents who didn't know any better, behaving weirdly and making very poor choices - but she wasn't "weird" enough to be cut any slack by anyone - the teachers couldn't work out why she was behaving so blindly stupidly, and my parents just kept telling her that it was all the teachers' fault because they were clearly just too stupid and had no idea about the world. Looking back the "they" with no idea about the world was so obviously our parents, not our teachers.

I knew a couple of people at school in the same situation. We were all ostracized for our extreme social awkwardness, but had no idea why - and having met them (and others) in the subsequent 18 years, it's now totally obvious what the problem was.

You sound very helpful, good luck - I hope you can make a difference to this girl (and potentially her family)

Thinking of school camps - a Brownie-like situation - something that could really help if the pack were big enough (I don't know if there would be enough kids involved to make this viable) might be to have a "noisy" group and a "quiet" group for sleeping and eating etc. With appropriately tactful leadership this could be an explicit feature where the leaders actually talk with the kids about the social context of the two groups, exploring/explaining the behavioural differences in a matter-of-fact way.

I used to dread nights on school camps, because it was when the girls would all go completely feral and be running round shrieking all night (and inevitably would repeatedly gang up on me and stand round my bunk asking barbed, bitchy questions while I cowered in my sleeping bag wishing they'd go away so I could go to sleep, trying not to cry). In those contexts a "quiet" bunkroom near the teachers, safely away from the totally normal excited teenagers, would have been a haven for quite a lot of girls like me.

also the struggling while "loving" Brownies thing that you mention - that rings a lot of bells. It took until my late 20s and beginning to realise what the issue was (ASD), for me to understand that other people don't struggle in social situations, and actively enjoy them. All my life i had struggled the way you describe this girl, and I had so little theory of mind that it genuinely never occurred to me that other people weren't constantly unhappy. What I loved about my particular hobbies was the structure and routine (and geeky delight) - I described that as passionately loving playing in the local youth orchestra, even though I spent every Saturday wishing it would end, wishing I could go home, and paralysed with fear that someone my age would try to talk to me.

I know absolutely nothing about autism, but you sound like a nice, caring leader and if it were my son struggling to fit in, for whatever reason, I'd be grateful to you for watching over him. Neither would I hate you for asking advice from your SN coordinator on how to manage your concerns.

OP, having read your fuller account, I think asking the mum if there was any way you could better support the girl at one-off events like parties would be a fair enough enquiry. Lots of children react to exciting events in a way that calls for a bit of extra informed attention, after all, even if it's just by getting over-excited. But obviously you know the mum and her likely reactions.

Also think Anna's idea about the noisy and quiet groups, if feasible, is wonderful - I would also have loved that as a child.

Personally, I wouldn't attempt to broach the whole of your thinking with them unless they gave you the green light to do so, so to speak.

I would start out with the smallest, mildest comment to them, something along the lines of: "I've noticed that your DD seems to have a bit of difficulty with certain things, and as I don't know her as well as you do, I thought I'd ask you if you've noticed anything similar, or if there's anything I/we can do to help."

Then stop , and gauge their reaction.

If they're horrified, get defensive and maybe a little bit angry, then I'd leave it and back off. They're not ready/willing to hear what you have to say for whatever reason, so pursuing it will achieve nothing of benefit. Just apologise and back off.

If on the other hand, they seem grateful for the information and keen/asking for more, then reveal a little bit more specifics, still along with the offer of help. I don't think I'd at any point mention autism though, unless their own line of thinking takes them in that direction... its just too much of a shock, and needs professional support. If they're open, professional support is the direction I'd ultimately steer them in (perhaps just starting with a visit to the GP "to see what their opinion is about the best way to help her."

Thats just what I'd do, and just my two cents. All the best OP, and bless you for being kind enough to actively try to help.

Call your district commissioner. Tell her your concerns. If you have a county directory then ring the special needs advisor. I'm pretty sure the Guider in Charge is talking bollocks actually, just because something isnt on the health form doesn't mean there isnt an issue. Look at the GGUK website and see what they say.

Well done you for being a top Brownie leader

It's fine to say to the girl's mother your daughter says/does xyz a lot and this is a problem because... - how best can we work with her to get around this problem?

It's not fine to diagnose.

I can't see anything wrong with saying something like, 'She doesn't seem to be enjoying herself here as much as we'd like, is there anything we can do to help her feel more comfortable?' That starts a conversation, without being threatening for the mum.

YABU, and if you came to me and told me you thought my daughter was on the autistic spectrum, I'd tell you where to shove it, and I certainly would be making a complaint. This is because, firstly, you are in no way, shape or form, qualified to diagnose another child just because your own child is on the spectrum - having worked with children for so long, I have worked with many who displayed some autistic traits and were not autistic at all (it was just down to early experiences, shyness etc, how their parents behave and on and on...).

You are in a position to do a quick feedback to the mum each week, along the lines of "how do you think x is settling into the group?" and get into a conversation that way, and maybe mention you think she struggles to interract with some of the girls, but that it might change in time as she settles in. The mum then may disclose to you that the girl is already receiving support and what it's for, or she might say "oh she's always been shy" or "she's always been precocious."

Also, I'd advise you to check your policies before approaching the SEN advisor. I've always had to ask parental permission before approaching a SENCO in schools, for example, and I don't really see why it should be any different because it's a club.

you can't diagnose autisim you just can't. you can say to her mum or whoever picks her up your concerns about her socially , perhaps her parents treat her like a little grown up and speak to her like she is speaking to others perhaps it is a learned thing, do say something to them though , but do not mention ASD it isn't your place to do so,

You sound like a nice Brownies leader.

I agree with the posters who suggest obtaining advice from within the organisation, and also those who advise telling the mother of your observations and asking for a chat about how to help the child fit in.

It's not an insult, so you should feel free to go ahead- it only shows you care.

Btw sounds EXACTLY like me when I was little. My AS is very very mild and you wouldn't think I had it, if you talked to me now (19 y.o.)- I do get a few strange looks sometimes but it's a lot better. I've had a girl tell me that she never would have guessed, which was like- WOW, thanks! Your Brownie will probably take some knocks, more than other people, but she can certainly learn from them....

How tricky. I do agree with what others have said and you should definitely seek advice from the SNA.

But from a personal POV, I can say that I really, deeply wish just ONE person had maybe noticed how different I was and how much I struggled, and pointed it out to my parents (who were totally blind to my problems as they had the clever studious girl they wanted), maybe they would've actually listened, and got me help sooner, rather than getting a dx of AS age 25 after years of self hate that can't be undone. Sorry, rather dramatic there but I've spent a lot of time wishing it could've been different for me.

Regardless of whether she does have an ASD or not, and whether or not her parents are aware of her difficulties, she does need help settling in, so I hope you can help her with that and involve the parents in it if appropriate.

I agree, you can't tell her, you aren't qualified to make this dx and she is likely to not want to hear it.
I would say you had noticed these difficulties and would like to help and can she talk though what she might suggest as she knows her best.

Fascinating post Anna

I wonder whether, in this context, the word 'Aspergers' can be used as a description as well as a definitive diagnostic label? E.g. Some of her behaviours are a bit 'Asperger-like' or 'Asperger-y' or 'some of her ways are similar to some of the ways I've noticed children with Aspergers often have.'

I wonder too, whether we would worry so much about mentioning other concerns, for example, if a child couldn't see the whiteboard clearly and we thought they could need glasses.

Maybe we're more careful with AS because it seems more personal, being a developmental disorder. Unfortunately, the suggestion of AS can be perceived by some as 'not normal' with a negative spin.

Parents might feel that their ability as a parent is being threatened by the suggestion that their child my have a condition. They might feel that they have caused the condition or they might feel that they should have noticed it first. It is possible that the parents know the child too well to notice. They might think her ways are 'just her' and of course they love her exactly how she is. Perhaps sometimes it can take an outside perspective to see Aspergers.

As has already been said, the parents (or one parent) might also be on the spectrum and perceive their child as perfectly ordinary. This happened for me. I was diagnosed with Aspergers in my 20's. My Dad clearly has Aspergers, but is undiagnosed. If anyone had suggested I had AS, my Dad would have had to consider that his own ways were not the norm (or superior to the norm!).

During adolescense, I believed I was something to be ashamed of because the popular kids perceived me that way and made it abundantly clear! I struggled into adulthood, battling depression and battling for AS assessment. Since being diagnosed, I have gained confidence and enjoy life. I wish someone had spoken to my parents.

Occasionally a leader would tell my parents that I was very shy and mention what they were doing to 'bring me out of my shell.' But 'shy' was my enemy. It gave teachers, parents and leaders too easy an answer and prevented them digging deeper into my inner processes, anxiety and distress.

If you do speak to parents, maybe mention that their daughter is well behaved and intelligent. All parents want these things and they might feel less criticised as parents.

Also, the parents may have thoughts such as, 'Ahh the Brownie group think DD has some condition and want to diagnose her!' They might fear that you will take action beyond their control. It might be wise to assure the parent that you won't take any action without them asking, unless you might, in which case, explain what the extent of your action would be (e.g. asking the SN advisor for advice.) If you do mention it, they may need a loooong time for it to sink in and to feel comfortable with considering it as possible.

Of course, the child might not have an ASD. I've written this with a bias based on my own experience.

From my experience (as an aspie and a mother of an aspie boy) you're probably in a better position to recognise the traits than many if not most Drs. Have you read the book Aspergirls, by Rudy Simone? Its really good because it tackles HFA/Asperger's from a female perspective, not many books do. It might be worth exploring how you can get the information across. Speak to the SN advisor at the Girl Guide Association.

It may well be the parents aren't aware how she is getting on or not in brownies, because home behaviour is often different from being in a large social group.

If I can help, feel free to PM me. There are a few of us "aspergirls" on MN :)

Can someone explain to me how a layperson saying 'I think your child has traits from the austistic spectrum/ may be on the spectrum etc' is diagnosing? It's not, it's just a guess. The recipient must surely look at the messenger and judge whether or not they value their opinion.

If a random parent told me that they thought my child was autistic, I might raise my eyebrows. If an educational psych told me, I would believe them. Of course, there are loads of people inbetween whose comments might lead me to see a psych.

FWIW, I told my lovely friend that her daughter's behaviour seemed odd to me and that they had become desensitised to a terrible situation. (Essentially, held hostage to the daughter's attempts of controlling her environment in a massive way). But, I had known her for 3 years and our daughters had been close. It was a difficult conversation but we had it. Her daughter has seen a psych and is an Aspie.

MurkyMinotaur you speak a lot of sense and you have in many ways just told my life story.

I wish that someone had pointed me towards some information about AS when my DD was a shy Brownie who didn't fit in very well but still wanted to go. It could have saved us all a lot of heartache and stopped her missing school for a year when she reached crisis point.

I don't think pointing someone in the right direction to look for information should be seen as diagnosing. It's fine to point out similarities with children who have a diagnosis of ASD and to suggest the next move but only if the parent is asking for opinions. Parents need to be able to ask for and process information at their own pace.