To feel I should point out to a mum that her daughter is clearly on the autistic spectrum?

[StaM]

I run a Brownies group.

An eight year old girl joined us in March. From the very class, i knew she was 'different' from the other girls. She displayed many of the traits my daughter has (who has a diagnosis of ASD - high functioning).

After a few weeks, I talked to the other Leader and she agreed the girl was different but said nothing more of it.

Over the months, volunteers have changed and I'm the only original Leader remaining since the girl started. I've been biting my tongue to say something to the mum, as i obviously didn't want to cause upset/offence. But I've noticed the little girl is seriously struggling socially, and it's not nice to watch.

She acts rather 'pompous; around the other girls. Very grown up, uses large words etc. She doesn't see that she is boring them, or that they are desperate for her to be quiet. The girl will not sit with the others, and opts to sit at the side/in the background. It's seriously like watching my own daughter, and my heart breaks each class for her. She seems really on edge when asked to do a group activity, or anything which involves mixing with the other girls.

I honestly think she could be doing with some assistance/help in social skills like my daughter is receiving. I have an urge every week to take her mum aside at hometime and ask her about her daughter's difficulties, but I don't think her mum would appreciate it.

I've tried talking to the new leader about it, but she's quite old fashioned and doesn't 'believe' in autism ( didn't say this as such though as she knew it would offend me). She basically said 'nothing is on the girl's medical/form, so there's nothing we can do'.

I understand the school would have picked up on this, but as far as i can see, the little girl isn't getting any more relaxed. So I'm not sure whether or not she's already getting help. She definitely needs social skills help. I try and get her to join in, or go and chat with her when she's sitting aside, but she's not interested.

Sorry for the rambling. Just looking for advice. Should I let it be, or should I say something to her mum?

MM, same here, my dad pretty clearly has HFA, I can see it now, growing up as an only child I didn't see how dysfunctional his behaviour was. (that's not to say all those with ASDs are dysfunctional BTW - only talking about my dad here!) When I told my parents that I was pursuing an assessment, he read the info I sent him and finally said that he recognised a lot in himself. But he still finds it incredibly difficult to accept. He actually said "I think Aspergers is just another word for genius" - his mum is probably the same, and basically I seem to be the first in a few generations to say "hey! This isn't right". If you're clever and get good grades and don't make any trouble (and Aspie girls especially tend to become introverted and not act out their difficulties) then you don't get help.

You say in the OP that you don't think the mother would appreciate you saying anything yet you are still going on about speaking to her. Why?

"It's more to do with how she speaks as a whole. Her tone, her sentences, the way she'll keep talking - even when you try and interject - acting as if she can't hear you."

Most kids are not good at learning to let others speak at times.

I think you need to butt out tbh. Your posts come across as if you are almost hasseling this poor child. She chose to sit on her own rather than with you and I think you need to back off a bit.

This reminds me of the saying 'When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail'....

I was a bit like this child, didn't like big social groups, used big words, could be a bit pompous- still am in many ways . However, I am not at all on the autistic spectrum.
A diagnosis can be useful- but on the other hand, human behaviour is very strange and variable and not everything can just be pigeon-holed into 'HFA'. Perhaps Brownies isn't for this child ( I hated it so much...), perhaps she just finds it difficult to be in an extrovert situation. With or without a diagnosis- isn't your role to help ALL children settle in and cope?

i feel for you OP. I do think that when your own child has a particular SN it is quite easy to spot others - i find the same as my eldest has AS, dyspraxia and dyslexia. I can spot others very easily and i seem to come into contact with many through work.

i think you have to tread very carefully. I do not see any problem with pointing out that she is having genuine difficulty with certain aspects, after all - its an observation, not a diagnosis.

i think you have to gauge how you do it though. I have spoken to a mum in a similar position after she called police to her son who was having a bit of a meltdown, he was clearly on the spectrum and everything she was telling me rang huge alarm bells - in the end i asked her if she has thought of having him assessed for special needs, and i talked to her about my own boy. She was hugely relieved and i think the penny dropped at that point - but not everyone is receptive to being told and i think you have to be so careful.

i would point out that she is having difficulty, without playing amateur diagnostician in this instance.

sometimes, while problems like this are spotted in school, they are not addressed and i found with my own child that because he did not cause any problems for anyone else he was left to it to struggle alone, Perhaps quietly and sensitively pointing out that she is struggling would be a start.

It doesn't sound as though she is unhappy at Brownies though, is she?

I can't believe a child could display behaviour as severe as the OP describes and the school not say a word to her parent though.

socharlotte if she does have AS it is very possible that she isn't happy but hasn't told anyone or expressed it openly. That is a side of AS which many people find very hard to grasp and has caused my DDs untold misery.

many children with AS are very stoic and accepting of their lot - sadly.

God, no, not your place at all, don't even think about it!

I agree Valium.

I wonder if those who have said not to raise this would feel differently if the OP had recognised symptoms of Diabetes or Leukaemia in one of her Brownies?

You can't compare that Golden. ASD is not life threatning and many parents choose to not label their child due to their own belief systems...especially if a child is high functioning.

They may KNOW the child is on the spectrum but have chosen not to persue a DX as she could be doing fine in school and in life.

I would say exactly the same gold - still not her place to diagnose - she is not a doctor or a teacher ( is she?), she runs the local brownie group!

I send my slightly socially awkward child to groups like Brownies because I know what they're like, and I want them to cope with things that are just a little outside their comfort zone.

I don't want them labelled, nor would I expect to find group leaders indulging in a little armchair diagnosis.

Unless you were in possession of a medical degree, and I had asked for your proffessional opinion (and probably paid through the nse for it), my first action would be to remove my child from your group.

I pay the leaders to involve my child in the same activities as the other children, I expect my child to do the best they can. The current fashion for spotting and labelling children as 'Aspies' winds me up no end.

The more I think about this, the more I can marine my response if someone tried to diagnose my child. I would give them very short shrift indeed.

You can compare the seriousness of the conditions. AS can be devastating to a child who is undiagnosed and not getting appropriate support. I have seen this first hand.

No valium, you're right, a paediatrician or similar should make a diagnosis. What about raising concerns and suggesting the possibility based on her deep knowledge as a parent of a child with ASD?

Does "Don't even think about it" include don't even try to think of a way to raise it more appropriately?

This thread has me wondering if other people recognised AS in my DD long before I did and chose not to raise it with me.

i also cant see how not wanting to label a child equates to dont want to know anything about if they are finding some situations difficult.

no one is saying the OP should rush in with a diagnosis.

i do think that the parent needs to be told if the child is finding the situation difficult or stressful. its not the same as saying "hi - btw did you know your DD has an ASD?"

i would say something. after that its up to the parent. i would not rest easy knowing a child was finding something hard and i had said nothing due to fear of causing offence - if its said in the right way then all the op is pointing out something the parent may not be aware of.
or they may.
id still mention it - often children behave differently in their parents eyes than someone more impartial.

I still don't see how OP saying anything is a diagnosis. She is a layperson, albeit one with experience, trying to help. The mother can do something with the advice or not. I did it and it worked but then my friend isn't a prickly mare.

There is also the possibility that the mum knows but chose not to disclose it ... sighf ....

Certainly there has been a fair amount of backtracking from the OP.

The original AIBU To feel I should point out to a mum that her daughter is clearly on the autistic spectrum does rather point to a particular mindset.

Unqualified people wetting themselves with the excitement of spotting HFA kids all over the place becomes rather tiresome after a while.

There are a few possibilities here.

Firstly, she may have a diagnosis but her mum be afraid to tell you - sadly I have known of children being refused entry into scout and guide packs because the leaders say they can't cope with SN.

Secondly, the school may be working on a diagnosis.

Thirdly, she may be a very "good" child in school, keeping her head down and coming across as shy. Sadly ASD is missed a lot in girls, because they tend to cause less "trouble" in schools compared to boys with ASD. So it is possible neither the school nor her mother have any idea how hard she finds coping in the less structured and more sociable place that is a brownie pack.

But the trouble is that you can't say it unless she asks you. If she raises the question of how her dd is getting on, or how she is managing socially, then you can mention specifics that she struggles with. That's all.

But I do think you should talk to your District Commissioner and SN co-ordinator -- and MrsCantSayAnything's opinion on that is frankly bizarre . As a leader, you go to your guiding superiors for advice - and if they don't know the answer they go higher to find you the answer. That's how good organisations work.

The fourth possibility, which is not getting much airtime here, is that she isn't on the spectrum.

Since that does remain a possibility unless/until a formal diagnosis is made, I don't see how you could do better than Vicar's informal approach to the mum about particular areas of struggle, and take it from there.

Unless you were in possession of a medical degree, and I had asked for your proffessional opinion (and probably paid through the nse for it), my first action would be to remove my child from your group.

Jesus christ. Just because the OP is making a thoughtful (how could it be anything else?) and potentially very helpful observation and has chosen to share it with you? How could you possibly be offended? I would have been saved so much trouble/unpleasantness if I'd have got an early diagnosis. You'd remove your DD from the group? gosh, people can't say anything anymore.

Look, I think people are answering totally different questions and then arguing with each other about it.

Some people are answering the question in the original thread title, others (particularly, but not exclusively, later arrivals) are answering a much-revised "Should I say something informal to the mum focused on particular behaviours/areas of struggle and ask if I can work with her to help the girl?"

To which my answers are respectively, "God, no" and "Yes, why not, you'd do this for any number of problems and behaviours, all you can do is ask".

My son finds it hard to behave appropriately in groups. But at age 8 he was fully assessed and not given an Aspergers diagnosis. Yes he has traits of Aspergers, but he is not bad enough.

At age 5 one of the deputy heads filled in an additional support plan with Aspergers as the reason, it really didn't help us at the time. She's since retired, but it is best to not assume what you don't know.