To feel I should point out to a mum that her daughter is clearly on the autistic spectrum?

[StaM]

I run a Brownies group.

An eight year old girl joined us in March. From the very class, i knew she was 'different' from the other girls. She displayed many of the traits my daughter has (who has a diagnosis of ASD - high functioning).

After a few weeks, I talked to the other Leader and she agreed the girl was different but said nothing more of it.

Over the months, volunteers have changed and I'm the only original Leader remaining since the girl started. I've been biting my tongue to say something to the mum, as i obviously didn't want to cause upset/offence. But I've noticed the little girl is seriously struggling socially, and it's not nice to watch.

She acts rather 'pompous; around the other girls. Very grown up, uses large words etc. She doesn't see that she is boring them, or that they are desperate for her to be quiet. The girl will not sit with the others, and opts to sit at the side/in the background. It's seriously like watching my own daughter, and my heart breaks each class for her. She seems really on edge when asked to do a group activity, or anything which involves mixing with the other girls.

I honestly think she could be doing with some assistance/help in social skills like my daughter is receiving. I have an urge every week to take her mum aside at hometime and ask her about her daughter's difficulties, but I don't think her mum would appreciate it.

I've tried talking to the new leader about it, but she's quite old fashioned and doesn't 'believe' in autism ( didn't say this as such though as she knew it would offend me). She basically said 'nothing is on the girl's medical/form, so there's nothing we can do'.

I understand the school would have picked up on this, but as far as i can see, the little girl isn't getting any more relaxed. So I'm not sure whether or not she's already getting help. She definitely needs social skills help. I try and get her to join in, or go and chat with her when she's sitting aside, but she's not interested.

Sorry for the rambling. Just looking for advice. Should I let it be, or should I say something to her mum?

I had trouble like this before. I was volunteer teaching a class of 3 yr olds at a Sunday school type setting. One child clearly had behaviour traits that got my attention.

I'm training to be a SLT at the moment and so I spend a lot of time observing children with ASD.

I decided not to 'do' much. I was only teaching the child for three weeks and in that position I couldnt refer the child on to anybody, so would risk shocking the mum without being able to follow it through with any kind of support. The child attended nursery so I hoped someone there would be aware and refer him for assessment.

I also considered the possibilty he may have been diagnosed or in the process and the mum chose not to declare it on the registration form (bigger issues have been
Omitted by parents who are scared their child would be labeled).

I did discuss specific troubles he had and strategies I used to handle it and things his mum could do which helped (basic stuff like talking through routines). I saw them recently and to my surprise the mum was still using on of these techniques!

My DD goes to clubs and I ask if they see differences. They don't but I would be grateful if they did!!

Surely there is protocol in place for when u have concerns about a child, similar to school procedure? Someone to liaise with?

Yes, I've been using some coping strategies with her that I use at home with my own daughter. E.g. counting to ten when she starts to feel flustered, and spending a little bit of extra time with her group each week to encourage her to give her thoughts/opinions when we're doing something like worksheets or poster-making.

To MadBusLadyHauntsTheMetro - ASD isn't just about hitting or screaming. My daughter rarely does any of these things. And of course I'm not basing it on her vocabulary - I said that there's a lot of traits, but i don't really want to list them all. IMO she is displaying strong traits of Aspergers or HFA.

I know exactly how you feel. I have two DDs with AS and other children with ASD really jump out at me, some of whom are undiagnosed.

I think it's reasonable to tell the mother what you have observed of her daughter's behaviour and ask her if school have raised any concerns. You can tell her how to go about getting her daughter support and ask her if she has any ideas about what might be the cause.

I definitely wouldn't mention Autism but you could suggest she gets her DD assessed by a developmental paediatrician.

If she asks you very directly why you have picked up on this behaviour you could just tell her that your DD has some social communication problems and you think her DD might be having some similar difficulties.

Sausage if my child's Brownie leader (gem that she is) were EVER to approach any outside agency regarding my child having SN without approaching me first.....I would be HOPPING mad.

I am going to cut and paste an excerpt from a post from a brownie leader, sausagesandwich34, which appears to have been missed:

''sausagesandwich34 Mon 29-Oct-12 22:06:13
I am a brownie leader

your county will have a special needs advisor, you either need to look them up in the county directory or speak to your district commissioner to put you in touch -take advice from them about whether or not to approach the mother and the best way to do it''

I do wonder if I would be on the spectrum these days, if this is all it takes. I was very similar to how this little girl sounds.

Mind you, I found most other children coma-inducingly boring and used long words deliberately to distance myself from them, so it may be that your concerns about her behaviour are framed entirely the wrong way round. [hgrin]

DH is a scout leader. Some boys have been on the spectrum and parents put it on the form. Some have behaved in ways that suggest they may be on the spectrum. One had a diagnosis which his mother only revealed as he was leaving as she hadn't wanted him to be "labelled".

I say this without passing any judgement on children or parents - scouting and guiding should be open to all, and unless this girl is actually disruptive you need to be VERY sensitive about telling her mother anything.

You sound very concerned and well meaning but please don't try to diagnose other people's children based on what, just over an hour a week?

StaM I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply ASD is about hitting or screaming (had no idea it was ever particularly about either of those things actually). I just meant I was expecting to see more extreme traits/incidents, given the title of your thread.

Oh that's so difficult.

Does she really need a diagnosis or can you just work with the 'symptoms' that you can see? The parents may not have chosen to share the info or they may have chosen to get her diagnosed. I know a child where the parents have chosen not to diagnose but its clear as day to everyone around them. We just deal with the child and their 'quirks', an official diagnosis is not going to change much.

'I don't have any experience with SN. But, well, this sounds a bit strange TBH. You want to tell her mum she's "clearly on the autistic spectrum" because she's "pompous", has a large vocabulary and doesn't like teamwork? I thought you were going to say she's screaming at odd moments or hitting the other children or something.'

Well, madbus, at least you own up to knowing nothing about SN. All of the behaviours mentioned can be exhibited by children on the spectrum. Or none of them. Which is why a diagnosis needs to be given by a specialist.

what is the assistance your DD is receiving about social interaction? Could you tell her about the class and your DD rather then talking about her own DD

MrsCant.... Sausage wasn't suggesting approaching an outside agency at all. She was suggesting approaching the leader's own advisers. Within guiding and scouting there are specially trained advisors for lots of things one of which is special needs. They are there to guide the leader in their actions. It isn't a referral to an 'outside agency'.

MrsCantSayAnything

I didn't say anything about an outside agency? I said to look for advice within the guide association?

any info like this would be handled completely confidentially

x post

All of the behaviours mentioned can be exhibited by children on the spectrum. Or none of them.

Well, yes, WofflingOn. That was exactly my point. They could be due to HFA, or they could not be. So I was a little confused as to why the OP was immediately concluding that they added up to a dx, you see?

She says there is other info she doesn't want to put here, which is totally fair enough, but we can only respond to the information she gives.

Orange yes...she was suggesting the OP seek help from the county's guiding "Special needs advisor" when she has NO idea if the child has got special needs.

That would be enough to piss any parent off and seriously presumptuous.

sorry mrscan'tsayanything 'she' was suggesting that the OP saught advice about what to do from a county advisor -not that the county advisor started offering diagnosis etc

OP doesn't know how to handle a situation, advisors are there for that purpose, I suggested she contacted her

MadBusLadyHauntsTheMetro - I shouldn't really have mentioned the vocabulary thing, i suppose. It's more to do with how she speaks as a whole. Her tone, her sentences, the way she'll keep talking - even when you try and interject - acting as if she can't hear you. But again, this is just one of the many things I've picked up on.

Tonight was our halloween party and this is the reason for my post. It was tonight she struggled with most since I've known her, and I found myself almost in tears. I had to duck out for a moment actually.

She was pacing and covering her ears when the music was on instead of dancing with the other girls - not distressed or anything, still quite calm. She was rushing around after the other girls, realigning all the party food and getting agitated when they messed the table. She didn't want to sit with the other children, so I got another table out and said her and me could sit together instead. But she opted to sit at the side on her own. And a whole load of other things. She was just really uncomfortable and on edge.

I think even approaching the mum with my concerns - not mentioning ASD of course, just her social struggles - would cause her offence.

From your replies, I think I should perhaps not say anything to the mum just now. Of course she knows her own daugher better than me. and of course the school would have picked up on it. I think I'll just put tonight down to it being a party, that she was acting more differently than usual. Maybe things will calm down a bit next week.

Thanks everyone. I feel silly now.

Sausage you suggested the OP ask for advice from the SN advisor and you don't know the child has special needs.

So how can you seek advice on behalf of a child when you are not aware of any SN? You can't. Not without presuming. Which one should never do when children are concerned.

this is how I imagined the conversation going

'hello SNA, I am concerned that one of the girls in my unit has SN, but the mother hasn't disclosed anything -what should I do?'

and then the OP would be given some advice about whether to speak to the parent, or whether to use some specific strategies in helping the girl to join in

SNA don't just work with children and units that have diagnosed SN, but also with girls who are shy, don't like large groups, have had bereavements in their family etc

I wasn't suggesting the child definitely has SN -that's why I suggested seeking advice?

midseasonsale - my daughter gets 2 hours of outreach support at school each week where a SALT therapist comes in and helps her with her stammering and social/behavioural issues. And my daughter has come on so well since it started. I feel that this girl would greatly benefit from similar help, if she's not already receiving it of course.

I've also recently enrolled in the Hanen Programme which I'm due to start next month.

I just don't like to think of this girl missing out on all this wonderful help when it could do her so much good.

But again, for all I know she could be getting the help already. It's just that i've not noticed any difference in her since March.

And for what it's worth - my daughter attends a similar group and I've also choosen not to put down her ASD diagnosis on the form. So it could very well be that the mum has done the same in this instance.

I'm just really confused, as it's not nice to watch a child in so much discomfort each week. Yet she always says how much she loves Brownies. So it's not like she hates it.

Sausage ... Hit the nail on the head there.

sausagesandwich34 - i appreciate the advice, thank you very much. But I don't think I'd be able to approach someone without the mum's consent first. And I don't even think I could approach the mum without my main Leader's consent either.