to think boys really ARE different to girls and it's not just nurture?

[Shovelnotspade]

I went into parenthood armed with a first degree in psychology (combined with philosophy) and the notion that until puberty, little boys and little girls are the same and any differences are simply nurture.

I have 3 boys, 4 including DH's son from his first marriage and to me, they're so different to girls I can't believe it!

My SIL came over with her 5 and 4 year old girls to play with my 3 and 2 year old boys - they live in the US so we don't see them often and hers say nicely and did crafting, played with my old dolls, and decorated biscuits. Mine did not stop shouting and running. At all. I wouldn't change them for the world and am used to having to think of them as having a LOT of energy and a short attention span but SIL looked amazed and offered me lots of largely pointless tips.

I hate generalisations (generally ) but in my experience, at this age, little boys need far more supervision!
AIBU?

Ha ha. My ds is sweet, affectionate, will sit and play with dinosaurs for hours, has always been even tempered and biddable. Never had a temper tantrum in his life, been to a&e once with an infected graze on his elbow (from his sister pushing him over!)
Dd on the other hand is a stroppy, opinionated little bugger who can't sit still for a minute, has the attention span of a gnat, and if she can't have her own way will paddy for an hour to get it, even though it never gets the desired result. Her a&e records have their own trolley because she does everything head first at 100mph and is always up to no good. She never listens to a word I say and never has.
Actually, all the boys in my family have a similar temperament to ds, and all the girls are feisty and stubborn, so maybe it's a genetic thing. Perhaps the second x chromosome has the "bloody awkward" gene on it somewhere.

Absolutely exotic, I agree with you. I believe that boys and girls are different from conception. It's not as clear as 'men are from mars and women from venus' - we don't come from different planets - males and females are both from Earth.

But within that, and it's not just hormones, there are subtle structural differences in the brain - which is why in terms of language, boys are slower to acquire the same language skills which is why speech delays are much more prevalent in boys.

In addition certain disorders are much more prevalent in boys such as Autism, hemophilia etc because boys are genetically different to girls - because females have an XX chromosome which compensates for certain genetic risks carried on the Y chromosome.

I think while it is nice to think of all children being 'the same' regardless of gender, it actually does our children a disservice to do so. Gender identity is very important to a child - it is one of the first things that children identify themselves as - even more than ethnic or cultural identity: "I am a boy", "I am a girl".

And that difference is what makes us both animals, mammals (if you keep animals like cats or dogs - you invariably notice a difference generally in traits between male and female animals) but it also makes us human.

If we were really all the same, then the world would be a very different place - it might or might not be more harmonious, but there would be no point in sex, relationships as we know them.

I am not suggesting that anyone use this to promote certain cultural ideologies - anyone can be 'trained' enough to go against their natural inclination - girls can do anything that boys can do and vice versa. In fact, if you study something or do something for long enough you will make structural changes to your brain that is measurable on a MRI - like taking up a musical instrument that leads to more grey matter in the brain - or even driving and remembering routes - taxi drivers have much larger hippocampuses than the rest of the population.

Just sayin' enjoy the difference. And move on

I was so disappointed when I had a boy and to be honest when I see my friends with their dds I still feel a pang of sadness. They have so much more to look forwards to as far as I can see. They have loads more in common with their dds than I do my son. My friend was telling me about all the things she loves doing with her dd, things that I couldn't do with ds simply because it isn't in is nature.
My son is what you would term a typical boy. Doesn't keep still, immature, no interest in drawing, colouring etc. The little girls I know are streets ahead of my ds academically too, but this may always be the case it's hard to know yet.

I find my ds extremely hard work. He doesn't let up, not even for a second. Friend's dds seem much calmer, more thoughtful, more imaginative etc. obviously there are always exceptions to these rules but I would say without any pushing ds has always been a typical boy. I have tried to encourage him to concentrate for longer periods of time, do crafts etc but it just ends in disaster, no interest from ds at all. He is very very physical and loves to climb and run, my living room is regularly dismantled. I wouldn't say he is badly behaved but he is exhausting.

Wasn't it 70 % nature, 20% nurture and 10% extraneous.

But there are so many influences which we are not aware we are causing. Eg the wish for a perfect first born son - because many people think they want someone to carry on the family name, so the way pfbs would have been treated could be v different to slightly disappointing first born daughter, though people would swear there is no difference in their treatment and possibly there isn't after a while (a while depending on how important this is - think of societies where boys are valued more than girls).

Then there is the naughty second born child - perhaps naughty because the first born is a demanding 2 year old, so second born just doesn't get as much attention as you would like. So behaves in a way to attract attention .....

Just saying this because I am surprised that so many people believe that the child's behaviour is solely due to the child, when in fact other factors as suggested above and a million others, could affect the child's behaviour compared to another, even a sibling.

If you came at me with a adult led activity like crafting I would away shouting too .
They were probably excited they sound lovely.
Its charecteristics of the children not their gender imo.

I got great reward from seeing my DCs doing well in something - running races, making friends whatever.

I would think you will be the same Onlyhappy so why don't you develop your DS's skills, kicking a ball, throwing and catching, just getting out for walks, something I would enjoy as much as my DS, I think you are looking through rose tinted specs, there was nothing worse than endlessly helping my DDs to dress bloody Barbie, let alone playing endless shops AARGH

I agree May that there are other factors at work

In addition though I am concerned that we view certain 'typical' male characteristics as negative in either sex such as boisterousness, inability to pay attention or sit still or even aggression. These are not negative characteristics per se - they are very useful in certain situations (e.g sport or military).

Unfortunately our culture does boys and girls who display these characteristics a disservice - they are deemed 'unacademic', 'problem children' etc - but that is because our culture is set up for a completely different approach that relies on batching children up on a production line for set career paths, with those that don't fit into the model, discarded.

Yet, these characteristics would have been highly prized in cultures of our past that relied on bravery and physicality to survive.

Just because someone is testosterone driven or 'masculine' (regardless of gender), it doesn't mean that they are 'bad' traits.

I hope so mayis I just very much feel that my friend's dds will always be in their lives, I kind of expect to wave my ds off at 18 and never hear from him or see him again. I don't think boys have the same sort of ties or loyalty to their families.

I do take him loads of places, in an effort to wear him out, but it is hard work feigning enthusiasm. I find we can be out from 9am, back about 4pm, he won't have stopped all day and he's still going long after I feel like having a lie down! Girls don't appear to have the same energy level, I think it is testosterone driven.

itsnot I rather fear my ds will be one of the discarded ones. I doubt he will sit still long enough to learn anything when he starts school.

I have a girl and a boy and I'm certain that they are born with very different personalities (as would 2 girls or 2 boys). What I don't like is the way other people often seem to treat the same behaviour so differently because one is a boy and the other is a girl. For example, if ds as a toddler hit or pushed it was very much frowned upon, he was being aggressive. Where as when dd does the exact same thing friends have commented with 'she won't let anyone push her around' or 'strong, independent woman, I like that'. If my son used to cuddle a doll and try to feed it people would laugh, 'don't let his dad see him doing that' where when my daughter does it people coo and say how cute she is.

There are definite gender differences which surface frequently between my two, but I wish others would just let them be who they want to instead of attaching connotations to their behaviours. I think it's very tough being a boy in this day and age!

It is where I think that the difference is down to personality rather than gender. I do not expect to wave my DSs goodbye at 18yrs- and since they have passed it I haven't - they are very family orientated and I expect them to be in my life for ever. My brothers are equally in my mothers life- I am not a special case merely because I am female.

If my son used to cuddle a doll and try to feed it people would laugh, 'don't let his dad see him doing that'

Arrgh, hate that attitude, it's rubbish.

What has surprised me most is differences in the body between DD2 and DN, who is 6 months younger. DD2 isn't exactly waif like, but DN is so solid and muscular in comparison, though he only looks slim, he's like a little tank. Though one who is happy to borrow one of DD's dress up costumes and play with dolls as much as he is doing traditional "boy stuff". I think most boys will unless they are criticised for it and discouraged.

Hmmm, I don't know about this. Aren't male and female brains different in some ways? Am I not right in thinking that girls multi-task and focus for longer because the two hemispheres of their brains talk to each other more? I am perfectly prepared to be wrong on this as I know nothing about child development or brains or owt sciencey (and sorry if this has already been said).

This totally goes against the grain for me btw as I expect DD and DS to be pretty similar. My DBro and I were equally likely to be up to our ears in mud or reading quietly as each other. It is total anecdote and a sample way too small to be at all scientific but DD (13 months) has definitely got a longer attention span than DS (nearly 4) has ever had

Funnily enough my DS (now 26) is the most caring and attentive of us oldies - maybe because he was the youngest, or is just more loving. Who knows? So that is not the case here Onlyhappy

Yes backtobedlam I think it is harder to be a boy in this day and age. Conversely I think it is actually harder to be a girl / woman after puberty in our culture because of the ridiculous 'pornification' and sexualisation of women that turns women and pubescent girls into objects, not people.

Likewise I worry with you Onlyhappy that my son will end up being failed by our educational system. He is only wee, and I am determined to teach him to 'fit in' because life will be so much easier for him if he does. I just don't want to break his spirit though, and I don't want to aggressively feminize him. And I don't want him to feel like he is worthless because he finds it hard to concentrate or express himself.

I have one boy, one girl, and the difference I've observed are many and varied, I can't generalise very far along gender lines.

My DS likes cars, trucks and transport, which are thought of as boys interests, but he prefers girls clothes, his favourite colour is pink, and he has a great attention span and will play quietly with jigsaws, books etc.

My DD is harder to categorise, she does like arts & crafts but has a limited attention span for that, and seems to prefer just watching cartoons on youtube, or playing on the iPad, she is quite studious though and does spend time reading, word puzzles etc. Now that she's at school I've heard her repeating some awful things about gender, even such as "X says that mens jobs are more important than womens, they are aren't they?" !!!

So I think the differences are more to do with individuality than gender, at least until they become brainwashed by popular culture!

You can see from this thread how heavily some people are invested in the idea that 'girls and boys just ARE different, they ARE', no matter what the actual evidence says (or doesn't say).

This idea that schools are somehow hostile to boys, often, it is claimed, because they are expected to sit down and pay attention and that's just Not Fair... absolute rollocks. A. some boys are very good at sitting down and paying attention B. some girls aren't C. every boy is very good at sitting down and paying attention when it's something they either enjoy or are told it's OK for boys to concentrate on, such as playing Call of Duty or Warhammer online. And D. in the 1950s and 60s when boys were expected to sit down and shut up or get the cane, boys managed to do very well at school (although the system was heavily biased against girls, with a higher 11+ pass rate for them to get into grammar school, for instance, and even more pressure not to study sciences or maths than there is today.

Someone down below said 'you don't get many female builders' as if that clinched it... obviously you don't get many female builders because schools, FE colleges and the construction industry is quite hostile to the idea of female builders. It's seen as a male field. Medicine used to be a male field - today entry to medical schools is around 50:50. Building could change too, if we gave girls permission.

The idea of a male and female brain is rubbish. Obviously there are individuals who favour the right or left hemispheres of the brain or who are balanced between the two.

Construction could be slower to change as there is a perception that greater physical effort is required. There is in some construction roles, but not usually for say, QS or Engineers, or CEOs of construction companies!

"You can see from this thread how heavily some people are invested in the idea that 'girls and boys just ARE different, they ARE', no matter what the actual evidence says (or doesn't say). "

Quite. It's depressing isn't it?

I would like someone to tell me why it matters which gender you have if they are no different.

Quite - and there are strong women who are perfectly capable of doing jobs that demand physical effort (there are some ruddy successful female plumbers, for instance) just as there are some men who would need a lie down in a darkened room after carrying one hod-load!

Male brain/female brain thing is so over-simplified and taken way beyond what we actually know about brains (which is not that much, really, still loads to work out). Since the invention of MRI scans has allowed us to look at living brains, what has been shown is that brains are hugely variable and complex. It's really not as simple as 'all men have this kind of brain, all women have that kind of brain, and that means men like cars and women like kittens'.

Onlyhappy please don't think like that [hsad] your son will very probably not disappear from your life at age 18, never to return. if you are a good mum and you create a great bond with your son whilst he is young, he will always be in your life. you're the only mum he'll ever have and he'll always love you dearly.

for what it's worth, my DP, all my friends's DP's and all the males in my family are still close with their mums and see them fairly often.

i'm starting to feel quite protective of little boys after reading this thread.

"I would like someone to tell me why it matters which gender you have if they are no different"

It doesn't.

I'd put money on those who care which gender they have are the ones who are convinced it makes a difference based on anecdote rather than fact

I have 2 girls and 3 boys and despite (we think) bringing them all up the same there do seem to be definite differences between the sexes.

The boys are/were all loud and silly, liked dreadful knock knock jokes, galloped around, had lots of energy, liked cars, dinosaurs, guns, Spiderman, getting muddy, building things (then knocking them down) and are all sweet, loving, affectionate and easy going. None of them could give a monkey's what anyone thought of them - were quite happy to kiss their Ma in public.

The girls are drama queens, liked singing and dancing, doing arty things with glitter, anything pink and sparkly, tiaras. They were outgoing with friends, but quite private individuals, much less openly affectionate than the boys. Also much more touchy and quick to take offense. Both of them worry what other people think/what is cool and were far less likely to kiss me in public in case other kids laughed at them about it.

They are all definite individuals but despite us not pushing 'gender' specific toys or activities onto them, it was quite clear that in general the girls liked pink and sparkly, and practicing new hairstyles/dances, whereas whatever you offered them the boys would happily run around with a plastic gun (or even a bit of lego) making machine gun noises at each other and wrestling each other to the ground.

Love 'em all to bits. And I'm glad I've got both sexes.

I don't think that I will be very popular if I come on threads and say ' don't be stupid- you don't need a DD - there is no difference'!