to think boys really ARE different to girls and it's not just nurture?

[Shovelnotspade]

I went into parenthood armed with a first degree in psychology (combined with philosophy) and the notion that until puberty, little boys and little girls are the same and any differences are simply nurture.

I have 3 boys, 4 including DH's son from his first marriage and to me, they're so different to girls I can't believe it!

My SIL came over with her 5 and 4 year old girls to play with my 3 and 2 year old boys - they live in the US so we don't see them often and hers say nicely and did crafting, played with my old dolls, and decorated biscuits. Mine did not stop shouting and running. At all. I wouldn't change them for the world and am used to having to think of them as having a LOT of energy and a short attention span but SIL looked amazed and offered me lots of largely pointless tips.

I hate generalisations (generally ) but in my experience, at this age, little boys need far more supervision!
AIBU?

YANBU.

Boys and Girls are different in their interests and behaviour. We may like to brush it off as innate cultural stereotyping, but I believe females are different in lots of ways ranging from the way we form relationships and health.

We are quick to notice and label 'male' traits on the relationship boards: ranging from differences in the way people process information about feelings etc or less empathetic ways of viewing the world, to higher libidos or aggressive behaviour. These traits are generalisations sure, and there are always exceptions etc but extrapolating them to a population wise basis, they are recognisable.

In health at the moment, there is recognition and research into the differing effects of medication on gender - with females being put at a disadvantage because medical trials generally use males; despite there being quite differing ways that men and women process the same medication.

There was some research into differing gender behaviour in infant chimps (there must be a link somewhere but haven't time to google) and several experiments where chimps in a 'wild' setting (and therefore not indoctrinated by human behaviour') were given access to human 'boy' toys (vehicles) or 'girl' toys (dolls etc) left lying on the ground. Without exception, male chimps gravitated to the male toys, females to the girl toys.

We may not want to admit that boys and girls are different - because it says so much more about us and the world we live in - but if we can admit that men and women are different, then why not children?

And if boys and girls are the same - why are toy departments everywhere split into fluffy pink glittery, things that are (like dolls, cuddly toys) and blue, vehicular, things that do? Sure cultural expectations have some part in it - but not all. The truth sells

In my all male household I am constantly having to explain things-I wouldn't have to if they were female.
I have a DS who could sit and concentrate for ages on jigsaws and books, one who spent all his spare time on craft activities, one who doesn't like football, one who will chat non stop as well as some who like football, mud etc. It is nothing to do with physical activities- except that girls don't wrestle at every opportunity- (and if they want to they won't fit in with other girls because generally they don't).
They are still very different-in general.

I also have apsychology degress and post-graduate qualification.

I totally agree with FolkGhoul. In my case I have two boys and can see quite clearly that differences between them I might be tempted to ascribe to gender, if they were different sexes, are actually as likely to be down to birth order and personality

psychology degree

It does bug me that boys are more often seen as 'naughty'

there is a flip side to that IME; people expect boys to tear around/ not listen etc etc, where as girls are expected to sit and play nicely. I find often boys bad behaviour is excused by 'he's just being a boy' and girls dont have an excuse...

Some scientific peer reviewed papers: A scan of sciencedaily.com there are literally thousands of papers on gender difference. These are just a clutch in no particular order of importance.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120725150215.htm

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120723095142.htm

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120530100105.htm

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120514134301.htm

Although male and females are different and we should accept this and embrace both our similarities and differences; lazy cultural stereotyping leads to discrimination. And that's the line that has to be tread. Because we are different, it does not mean that one or the other is better.

I refuse to expect anything.
I don't have a psychology degree but having grown up with brothers, having DSs, being a teacher, Brownie leader and Beaver leader, I would say that there is a difference.

I would say it is about 50/50 nature/nurture.

They are different IMO, I have two boys and the energy level in our house is off the charts compared to my friend who has two girls of roughly the same age.

While there is definitely a difference to start with, it is also heavily reinforced by people telling girls they can't do things that boys of the same age are up to. I have been at the park and my boys are doing crazy shit and seen girls told off for doing the exact same stuff that the boys are doing.

If you tell a little girl often enough that she can't do something because she is a girl, then sooner or later she will believe you and it will become true.

Both of my boys need to be run into the ground before you can expect them to sit and even then they are going to fidget.

DS1 goes for a run with DH in the mornings now before school. Usually around 5km, then he comes home and has breakfast, then he goes to school, walks (and very hilly), leaving enough time for maximum playtime before the bell (usually soccer on the oval), then morning school, then a run around at recess, more sitting, then lunch (sometimes he even eats it! but mostly more football), then sitting, then home, a sandwich and then out the door to the park/bike/skateboard.

DS2 is only 2.5 but pretty much the same scaled down.

If my kids are sitting quietly for more than say 30 minutes I start to worry they are sick.

I also cant abide the term 'tomboy' for girls that like 'boys stuff'...they are just girls who like climbing/football/whatever...

you would never call a calm quiet boy a 'nancyboy' would you?

And THAT is because its OK to be 'boy-like' but not ok to be 'girl-like'?

Exactly-embrace the similarities and differences. I never understand why the general characteristics attributed to boys are supposed to be bad or 'naughty'. One isn't better-merely different.

And if this sounds all a bit primordial and stone age - we are essentially animals. Clever, nevertheless but, primates living with stone age brains in space age times

I think family composition has a huge influence on children, I have two girls and then a boy, ds loves nothing more than sitting down drawing (he is 3) or doing craft, he loves imaginative play, and will be dr Ranj from 'get well soon' for 4-5 hours at a time. Often I ask him if he wants to go out, but no he wants to curl up on my lap. He out of all three is the one who enjoys going shopping (at his age neither girl was interested and still isn't), and enjoys cleaning. Dd1 at that age was opposite on almost all counts except the imaginative play. His interests are boyish - dinosaurs, knights etc, but he is, at the moment v mellow (waiting for testosterone surge!).

A friend has the opposite - two boys and then a girl, the girl loves going out, getting muddy, fighting with swords etc. I think at a young age they model themselves on the people around them. So yes nurture does have a large influence, but in interaction with nature, imho.

I agree with that 3bunnies.

Oh and from a young age ds has squirrelled himself away with a book and 'read', something dd1 (nearly 8) is only just starting to do and dd2 still doesn't do. Despite all these differences I would still say that the major difference personality wise (e.g. Introvert/ extrovert, energy levels etc) is between dd1 and dd2, which is why I have a hollow laugh reserved for all the times people (generally mums of boys) tell me it must be so different having a boy after two girls.

Everyone can find exceptions (there are exceptions to every rule) but generally
Boys will wrestle if they have nothing to do-girls won't.
Boys will play a game with a DC they don't know and just enjoy it, without exchanging any personal information. A girl will know the name of the other child, their likes dislikes, family members etc.
If boys bully it is likely to be physical and direct, girls are likely to be more subtle-just as nasty but not physical and more inclined to profess innocence.
Boys are less likely to have power struggles in friendships-the sort where they are best friends one minute and you are handing out the tissues the next.

This is in general.

In my observations in school it is very often boys who are the great readers and will lose themselves in a book. Of course girls do, but it is complete myth that it is a 'girly' thing.

There are other biological factors as well such as pre-natal exposure to testosterone (you can tell much how you were exposed to by looking at your digit ratio) which can influence how 'masculine' or 'feminine' you are, regardless of gender.

Obviously, male fetuses have a far greater degree of testosterone exposure - it's that hormone that causes male sexual organs to develop; but there are variations for both male and female fetuses - particularly if the fetus shares the womb with a sibling of the opposite gender or the mother has had several pregnancies before of one gender.

tell us about the digit ratio slap!

Tilder - I recommend reading "The Blank Slate" by Stephen Pinker.

People treat boys and girls differently right from the moment they are born. Girls and boys are constantly told what society expects from them. To try to untangle all that social conditioning from 'nature' (whatever that means) is practically impossible.

The experiments where people treated the same baby very differently when it was dressed in pink and when it was dressed in blue clinched it. And they've been repeated. If they think the baby is a girl, they say things about how pretty she is, if they think the baby is a boy they go one about how strong he is. If you think an older baby is a boy, you'll assume he's pointing at vehicle and make car noises at him, if you think it's a girl, you'll assume she's pointing at a cuddly animal or something.

Finally, any individual is different from any other individual. You can't say someone will be like A or B or will like doing C or D because they are of one gender or another. Not all boys are the same, and not all girls are the same.

People are very keen to enforce gender boundaries, and keep trying desperately to find evidence to prove women fit into this box, and men fit into this box, even when you point out the gaps in their evidence and the flaws in the argument.

Why can't we let children just be children? It makes me really sad.

Dd1 will wrestle at every opportunity, drives ds mad! Having said that I think on other dimensions dd1 is more girly and dd2 more boyish - dd1 more humanities/ philosophical, dd2 more mathematical/ scientific; dd1 more into socialising and friends, dd2 finds the 'rules of engagement' with friends harder; dd1 only plays with girls, dd2 only plays with boys. Ds falls neatly inbetween on all of these (except the philosophy/science dimension as too early to tell - he does love playing drs though, and is doing well with counting etc).

Here you go Procrasstinator en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

Interestingly enough; on gender difference / behaviour and environmental factors I found this - that the way infants are parented can reduce / increase testosterone levels - Testosterone-Fueled Infantile Males Might Be a Product of Mom's Behavior. So yes, environmental factors can make a difference in how masculine or feminine you are. But this is still based on biological factors

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120510095936.htm

Incidentally the digit ratio also is linked to sexual orientation

You may be right OP, although the girls in your OP have different parents to the boys in your OP, so difficult to compare and they might be on their best visiting behaviour anyway. They might be little horrors when in their own environment.