to think boys really ARE different to girls and it's not just nurture?

[Shovelnotspade]

I went into parenthood armed with a first degree in psychology (combined with philosophy) and the notion that until puberty, little boys and little girls are the same and any differences are simply nurture.

I have 3 boys, 4 including DH's son from his first marriage and to me, they're so different to girls I can't believe it!

My SIL came over with her 5 and 4 year old girls to play with my 3 and 2 year old boys - they live in the US so we don't see them often and hers say nicely and did crafting, played with my old dolls, and decorated biscuits. Mine did not stop shouting and running. At all. I wouldn't change them for the world and am used to having to think of them as having a LOT of energy and a short attention span but SIL looked amazed and offered me lots of largely pointless tips.

I hate generalisations (generally ) but in my experience, at this age, little boys need far more supervision!
AIBU?

On Global Gender Gap list, Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden are the first 4 (as most equal). Yes there is no absolute equality in Sweden either, but the society is certainly doing better than UK.

If boys have such terribly short attention spans, why are all of those teen troglodytes who spend hours a day playing video games, even peeing in bottles if rumours are to be believed, boys?

There is definitely a maturity gap between boys and girls, but a lot of examples of behaviour, that is typically ascribed to the other gender, are explained away to fit in, or given such different value judgement that it seems completely different. Therefore, a girl sitting a doing craft activities all afternoon is being gentle and quiet and good; a boy sitting playing on the PS3 all afternoon is being obsessive and male-brained. The continuous disagreements and fallings-out, and subsequent making-ups, which characterise schoolgirl relationships in the early teens, are seen as evidence of girls being fickle, over-dramatic and bitchy. A group of 17-year-old boys who are at one another's throats and threatening to injure each other's families one day, and friends again the next, are being honest, uncomplicated men having in out with one another.

"I think male and female interests in childhood are quite different. Which is why toy stores market different products at different genders"

No, toy stores do it because it means they can sell two lots of toys to gullible adults. Pink prams for girls, blue cars for boys.

I have three sons and a daughter (in that order), now adult. I honestly saw no difference in their behaviour as tiny children; my sons had dolls and a pram; my daughter had cars and footballs. They all wore dungarees and sensible outdoor clothing. It was only when they went to playgroup and school that the differences showed - and that's probably because there is still huge pressure to conform to gender norms.

Everywhere you turn, there are reminders of differing expectations. Girls' clothing tends to be appearance-based, rather than serviceable. Boys are still allowed to make a mess and roll around, while girls are expected to play nicely and keep their clothes clean.

When I hear people say "boys are like pupppies - they need daily exercise", I despair. Poor girls. All children, regardless of gender, need to be out there in the fresh air, running off their energy, caring nothing about their appearance, making themselves strong.

It's a generalisation reinforced by socialisation. People react to babies differently based on the perceived gender of the child. It starts from day one.

There are girls who are climbing, running, shouting and boys who are quiet and sedate.

A three year old who appears to be a girl running around shouting and playing boisterously with toys is more likely to get a cats-bum mouth face from strangers than a boy behaving exactly the same way. I've seen (on here) someone describing how when their daughter is playing on the climbing frame she has had strangers hovering (to catch her if she falls) when she's dresses in obviously 'female' clothing. It hasn't happened when she's wearing her brother's hand-me-downs.

as the mother of very boisterous girls, I agree with narked
complete double standards of behaviour expectations

Also, a little girl who is sitting on the floor colouring today, may have been running around her granny's house, bouncing off the furniture like Sonic the Hedgehog, and roaring like a lion, that morning.

Children are surprisingly changeable in their temperaments, depending on the situation.

As a parent with one of each and a teacher of 25yrs, I would say that some boys are different to some girls, but also that our expectations of their behaviour tends to differ and so that also results in the children behaving according to our expectations, IYSWIM.

YABU. My ds1 is generally quite sedate, hates sports and is very quiet when at home. He was much more active as a toddler. DS2 is more active but I think a lot of it is just the age to be honest. As they get older they do seem to calm down and want to do thinks that they can focus on more. I think it is more AGE than GENDER.

I will say what I always say on these threads.

When people talk about boys and girls being inherently different, they are comparing too many variables. If you are trying to prove something in science, you try to control all the variables but one, and see what that one does.

You simply cannot do that in gender, because you will always be comparing the combined effects of nature and nurture. So whilst that may, in general, result in more physical boys, girls who are better at sitting still, etc, you are no further forward on causation.

All you can say is that we cannot possibly know if there is an innate difference.

I have two girls and try to parent in a gender neutral way, but no matter how much effort I make, I know there are gender specific things I do (would I tell a DS he looked 'beautiful' when all dressed up for a party? Why do I have to consciously refer to dogs/cats we encounter as 'she' sometimes, whereas my default setting is 'he' even though I have no idea the sex of the animal) because I am a product of my environment too.

And by god other people gender stereotype. I posted a while ago about how I went shopping with the kids and DD2 (16 months) was having an independent moment and wanted to walk and carry a bag of shopping. Someone who mistook her for a boy said ' Isn't he strong, helping his mummy', whereas the person who recognised she was a girl made a comment about her wanting to go shopping and being sweet. Children internalise those messages dozens of times a day, especially if they are either (i) in childcare, or at school in an environment not very strictly against gender stereotyping (which few are, some of the worst offenders I know are teachers); or (ii) with a parent/carer who doesn't bother about this stuff.

And totally agree with Narked. God, the looks I get at the playground when I let my two run around, climb high things, yell etc in just the same way as the surrounding boys. I often notice disapproving looks that are not directed to boys behaving in exactly the same way. And heaven forfend if they get messy or wet. I practically have people calling SS.

scream i once had the man behind me in the queue at the bank tap me on the shoulder and tell me 'uhmmm...your daughter is wiping her nose on her t-shirt'

have lost count of the times people have actually told me 'you shouldnt let your daughter run around like that'

Apologies if this has already been said (haven't read all posts) but try reading Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph. It's a bit much in places but explains the hormone surges etc that DO affect boys. Of course they're different!

Scream puts it well. The fact is we don't do boys OR girls any favours by expecting ANY type of behaviour of them. They need to be as free as possible from gender expectation.

Wordsmith - Steve Biddulph is not the world's leading academic expert on child development, genetics or biology. He's a writer who has a point of view and quotes stuff selectively to bolster that point of view. Fair enough up to a point, he probably believes it and it certainly helps to sell books. But is is not dispassionate, evidence-based peer reviewed science.

'A three year old who appears to be a girl running around shouting and playing boisterously with toys is more likely to get a cats-bum mouth face from strangers than a boy behaving exactly the same way.'

So true! And so many people are unaware of how ingrained gender stereotyping is. I work with parents of young children and I am shocked how terribly invested lots of them are in the idea that boys and girls are totally different and it is 100% innate. I'm not sure what that's all about, or why they are so horrified when you challenge it, Dads particularly.

Some of my colleagues come out with the same stuff - a colleague told me recently that she is glad she has 2 girls because she's more of a 'girly' mum and would never cope with boys. WTF is that supposed to mean? And she is an Early Years professional who should be a bit more enlightened on this issue!

Personally, I'm open to the idea that there may be biological differences which influence behaviour, but any differences are more down to nurture than nature and there is far more variation within gender groups than between them.

MrsCantSayAnything, and others who have said the same thing. It is perfectly possible to accept the evidence that behaviour in males is, on average, different from behaviour in females, without expecting males to conform to the average for males and females to conform to conform to the average for females. We don't do males or females any favours by expectiung them to be the same when they very clearly are not.

Wordsmith - Steve Biddulph is not the world's leading academic expert on child development, genetics or biology. He's a writer who has a point of view and quotes stuff selectively to bolster that point of view. Fair enough up to a point, he probably believes it and it certainly helps to sell books. But is is not dispassionate, evidence-based peer reviewed science.

Exactly right, but of course exactly the same applies to books like "Delusions of gender".

YANBU, it amazes me how COMPLETELY different my DD & DS are. I appreciate they could also be like that as two boys. They are both pretty stereotypical to their gender.

I treat them the same but who knows how much is unconcious nurtering of the different sexes on my part.

Still, it make me quite

I have a question on this. Do little girls tend to soak up learning a bit better? All the little girls I know (3-4) tend to be ahead in terms of letter recognition and language and the boys (including mine) tend to be far less interested. Of course, it could just be the kids I know but all my mum mates are relatively similar people. I've recently moved area too and am finding the same thing with boys and girls I know here in Teddington as in Hackney (rather different places, but still London I guess, so again, not very scientific).

A friend of mine is a teacher and has taught in private schools all her working life, teaching nine year olds of both sexes in several different roles. Her view is that there are fundamental differences which are behind the fact that girls tend to do better at school up until degree level. The 9 year old girls (both bright and not-so-academic) tend to write realms and realms of stuff on 'my weekend' whereas even the brightest boys can't manage more than half a side. She said they just tend to be much more staight and less interested in elaborating or making the account the best they can, just focussed on getting it done. One person's view again but at least she has some grounding (same type of schools, same age, both sexes).

I wonder what teachers on here think? I'm not sure. Maybe I am just making excuses!

Can you quote me any reputable scientific evidence for Biddulph's claim that boys have a testosterone surge at around 4? Because (a) he gives no footnote or reference for that in his book, in spite of almost every other passing comment on anything being referenced, and (b) Several medically qualified people have independently told me that it's completely untrue.

Dilys I don't buy that really...I have DDs and my older DD was like your boys...a bit slower to pick things up in school really...my friends little boy could write before he began reception.

It's different for different kids. Another little girl we know, same age as my DD2 is ahead of her....whilst yet another is behind...I'm sure it's the same with the boys in her class...some are ahead of her and some are behind.

Just read some of the comments on here - perhaps we (parents, teachers) expect girls to learn more easily, because we expect them to sit still longer, and so we treat boys as creatures who are less interested in learning etc etc and so it is perpetuated.

And depends what you mean by "books like 'Delusions of Gender'"; Lise Eliot, who wrote Pink Brain, Blue Brain, is a professor of neuroscience.

dilys, I totally agree about expectations- if little boys are not expected to be able to sit and listen for any length of time, then it would follow that they won't have so many opportunities to develop those skills