to think boys really ARE different to girls and it's not just nurture?

[Shovelnotspade]

I went into parenthood armed with a first degree in psychology (combined with philosophy) and the notion that until puberty, little boys and little girls are the same and any differences are simply nurture.

I have 3 boys, 4 including DH's son from his first marriage and to me, they're so different to girls I can't believe it!

My SIL came over with her 5 and 4 year old girls to play with my 3 and 2 year old boys - they live in the US so we don't see them often and hers say nicely and did crafting, played with my old dolls, and decorated biscuits. Mine did not stop shouting and running. At all. I wouldn't change them for the world and am used to having to think of them as having a LOT of energy and a short attention span but SIL looked amazed and offered me lots of largely pointless tips.

I hate generalisations (generally ) but in my experience, at this age, little boys need far more supervision!
AIBU?

OP, I also have a psychology degree. There are differences. However, given that socialization begins (pre) at birth and we aren't always consciously aware of how we behave towards them, I wouldn't like to say for definite either way. I believe it's a combination of the two.

I have a 13 year old son who is laid back and placid. Who enjoys drawing and is quiet and softly spoken. He eats like a bird and doesn't like to get dirty.

I also have a 6 year old daughter who is 'dynamic' and feisty, energetic and 'boisterous'. She is loud and shouty, confident and 'ballsy'. She eats like a horse and loves climbing trees and getting muddy.

However, my son always preferred trains as a toddler and rejected the dolls and tea sets in much the same way as my daughter prefers the tea sets and dolls and her interest in the Brio trainset only exists when her brother plays with her.

They both like cooking. DD likes cross stitch, but then DS joined the school knitting club. DS cried when he went to football training, DD has got the best natural ball skills of all of us. But DS loved Transformers and DD loved sparkly Disney Princesses...

The fact is, that all children are capable of all these things, boy or girl, but maybe we only notice the things we are looking for because they confirm our beliefs.

I could describe both my children as 'typical' and also completely 'atypical' depending on the interests/qualities/skills I chose to focus on. It says more about us than it does about the children.

I think in children where you only see the gender stereotyped behaviour (I know a few families where this would apply) you only have to look to the parents and listen to how they speak about their children to realise that their children have often only been given gendered opportunities or such strong messages that the children have learned to hide/ignore/suppress other aspects of themselves because they have learned that is not what boys/girls do.

Having moved from one culture to another I can't help noticing that ideas of "typical boy behaviour" is not universal- as you might expect if they were based on objective observations on biologically determined differences.

Where I grew up, even the girliest girl would be expected to spend a sizeable proportion of her time on pursuits that in this country would only really be associated with out and out tomboys. Otoh parents, nurseries and schools put a lot of emphasis on crafts for both sexes. My db was far more patient at his knitting than I ever was and we were all taught embroidery and baking from an early age.

Hmm. Experience here (gbg) is that generally ds has been as wide ranging in his ability to enjoy activities that are physical or need concentration as dd2. In retrospect the fact the he was more physical in play than dd1 is probably because she is ? Dyspraxic to a degree so couldn't do it...

Now they are older I'm sure that boys learn differently though - or is it just they are taught differently maybe ( single sex schools). Had a chat with ds about AS Maths - apparently the girls do more problem solving and they deal with more abstract stuff?

DH teaches boys at prep and they have more play time and lots more sport that state time tabling could ever allow. They settle and work well , but who's to say girls who ran around like loons for a couple if ours a Dat would work better too?

That's it, isn't it, cory? When you can see behaviours that are culturally specific, you can be pretty sure they're not natural law!

YABU - my male two year old is very much like his female cousin - they are both energetic, and love wheeled vehicles, toys that involve bashing something, and making everyone play their games (compulsory group participation).

In contrast his male cousin is a meticulous, sensitive sole who finds their boisterousness (ha, is that a genderbiased word?) a bit too much.

It's the kid, not the gender.

ARGH soul not sole

i am not sure, i think a lot is socialisation, my four boys are all very different from each other.

no 1, quiet, a bit 'geeky' likes to read, draw, enjoys science and maths etc has NEVER been a phsysical child ever and hates sport now at 13yrs.

ds2 very active and phsysical, crawled and walked early, loves any sport, but also likes drawing, reading and crafts.

ds3 again early crawler/walker, not into sport really but loves riding bike/scooter. loves crafty stuff and is very inot pink/purple, fairies and princesses.

ds4 very physical, at just 4 and in reception he has great oral skills, knows all his phonics etc but cannot/will not write, his pen control/fine motor skill is crap and he wont sit and draw, doesnt like crafts etc.

then i have dd, 22mths, she is very physical, loves running around and climbing but is a BIG fan of dolls and cuddly toys and the toy kitchen etc.

we have had the same toys for all of them and she has acess to all the 'boys' toys but she does really like dolls, goes straight to them at toddler group and plays with ds3's doll and pushchair at home. will ist with the argos catalogue and flick through all the pages until she gest to the pink/girly/dolls page when she gets all excited and claps and then spends ages saying 'baby dollly, pushchair' etc. she also loves crafty things and at toddler groups is very independent and will sit and do sticking and colouring, woe bedite me if try to help her!

anyway they are all different, but i am finding it interesting to watch how dd develps her own likes and dislikes after the four boys, all of whom love cars, diggers, any vehicles. dd is a fan of buses tho.

It's my DD and my DS3 that have the attention span of a gnat on speed.

DS1 and DS2 can spend hours building a Martian Ninja training camp out of Lego.

It's not a girl/boy thing, it's a personality thing.

And also, as a previous poster said, 5 and 4 is a lot different to 3 and 2. In two years time, your DC's may well sit down and do crafts, or play Lego.

And while yours will be happy to play computer games at 10 and 9, hers will be 12 and 10, and arguing over who stole who's perfume and she's got my nice hoody and won't give it back and and and...

Total rubbish. I have 2 DDs and a friend has 2 boys the same age. My DD1 has always been loud, active, climbed on anything as a toddler etc, while my friend's DS1 is quiet, calm, always used to fall over while trying to keep up with my DD1, and will sit playing quietly with lego making intricate models for hours. My DD2 is the exact opposite to my DD1- quiet, mummy's girl, trips over her feet, and loves playing with baby dolls. My friend's DS2 is a 'typical' boy, obsessed with balls and cars, and always on the go.

They are just kids, with personalities as individual as they are!

Your experience is only relevant if you remove all other variables (shouldn't you know this from your degree in psychology??)

So the boys and girls have been brought up by different families, in different countries, with different social networks, probably with different entertainment, different social norms, and (unless I'm mistaken) none of them are totally 100% sheltered from societies expectations of what boys and girls should be like. On top of that their immediate surroundings will cause different reactions.

There are so many variables there that you couldn't even begin to draw conclusions from it.

I have DS6, DD4, DS2. This afternoon DS1 drew pictures all afternoon, DS2 played with the dolls house and DD mainly ran around shouting at us about how terrible we were.

From this limited time sample I can determine that girls are generally much more annoying.

Interestingly, both DSs made a really loud mumumum noise when they were eating (DS1 has stopped now but DS2 still does) to the extent that other people comment on it. Because DD never did I can deduce that ALL boys are noisy eaters

YANBU to say that there are differences but YABU to assume that the enormous difference in the way boys and girls are treated is irrelevant. I have a dd and a ds and I am constantly amazed by how differently they are treated for doing the same thing. For example when ds says please or thank you in shops the shop assistants often comment on how polite he is and he has even been given extra chocolate samples in Hotel Chocolat for saying thank you. But dd, who was also saying please and thank you at that age, was never ever commented on or congratulated. It's like dds are expected to be polite where as it's something worthy of praise for a ds. Also when ds misbehaves it seems to attract less angry stares than when dd is the one playing up. I think a lot of people assume that dss are like having a grey hound or something, and therefore they excuse over energetic behaviour as being full of beans, whereas it's naughtiness in dd.

Dd is only 14 months older than ds so it's not like society has changed a huge amount in between them.

I agree that all kids are just personalities but most of the 200 boys I know need to run ragged (ideally in the mornings).

My mum always says 'boys wear you out physically, girls wear you out mentally'. Guess I've got a tom-boy as DD jibber jabbers all day long but runs around like a headless chicken too.

I always need my bed by 8pm!!

I am reading this thread with interest. I have 2 boys and a girl and have never wanted to conform to stereotypes but I guess to a degree I have.

Are there any good books around on this subject? Don't want a full on psychology text or an airy fairy one but something in between?

Children are different because they are different, not because of what is between their legs.

FTR, I have two children of the same sex, and they are completely different to each other.

I have two boys so also have nothing to compare it to. However they are total opposites of each other. Ds1 was a very calm, relaxed baby and ds2 is wild!

YABU.

Some have stated that socialisation and gender stereotyping begins at birth. I think it starts way before that. If parents to be choose to find out the sex before birth, they and everyone they tell will start putting the not yet born baby into either a pink or blue pigeon hole (sometimes literally if the nursery is painted according to popular gendered colours and motifs!) Even before pregnancy, many people imagine what it will be like having a daughter or son and those imaginings don't disappear once a real baby is on their lap.

As someone said above, we have "good girls" and "jolly boys," because our society pushes and pulls them to conform to these stereotypes. Sadly, this means many children end up struggling to be what they want to be if it doesn't reflect the "norm," and may never reach their potential as a result.

I expected my DD to be a tomboy and treated her like one - after all, I had two older brothers and was a tomboy. Turns out she isn't, she likes pink, sparkly stuff, unicorns, dresses, dancing and other "girlie" things... She still runs round like a lunatic and fights with her brothers mind you. However, she is distinctly more complicated to deal with then her brothers who, whilst both different in character to each other, are basically easy at their core.

I don't think my dd has ever sat nicely, she has never been interested in dolls, she enjoys crafts as much as the next child, but is more interested in shouting and running.

Honestly, I have met a few very "girly" girl children, I have no idea why they are like that, probably just a personality thing. The great majority of girl children I have met, enjoy running and jumping and climbing and adventures and poking things with sticks and fart jokes (no matter what the attire or nail polish status).

Even the girls I know who have grown up to be dancers, with all the spray tans and excessive make up etc were not the classic meek little girls colouring in for hours.

I don't think the nature/nurture debate should run along gender lines, it seems to me that some children are much more biddable/calm than others, mine are on the opposite side.

You cannot generalise from 2 girls who were well behaved in new company, my dd is lovely in other peoples homes, my ds's are no more bouncy or like dogs (I hate that term) than dd.

I always find it very odd that people insist that there is no difference and then they have a preference on gender! If there is no difference it really doesn't matter!
I live in an all male house-they are different-and it is nothing to do with sitting still and activities.

I have 3 boys and 6 girls and ime differences seem to be down to personality up to puberty. During/after puberty things get a bit different (although personality traits are still there). So imo yabu.

So next time someone says they were disappointed they wanted a girl I will be able to say-don't be silly, there is no difference!

Well aside from the physical difference and possibly social expectations I would say you would be correct pre-puberty. Of course with later development differences would appear. At least that is my experience.