To think that 60k is a lot of money to earn a year?!

[MinkSlink]

I think it is a lot of money to earn per year but it seems a lot of people on mumsnet don't think so, am I in the piss poor minority here or what?!

I have no 'h' key as DS3 snapped it. I apolgise for any words missing an 'h'.

My definition of wealthy? Being able to turn on the heating without thinking about it when it snows, rather than trying to cope with hot water bottles, coats on, gloves on until it becomes frankly unbearable.

Not crying when your water bill comes in. Being ableto flush the chain every time you do a wee, not worrying that if you flush twice in an hour, it will cost money.

Not trying to do meals for 5 on £3.27 a day for you all - that's NOT per meal btw - because your DS put a ole on his last pair of school trousers playing football and tey're unmendable.

Being able to say "I can't be bothered to cook, lets get a takeaway"

Being able to spend more than £20 per DC at Christmas.

A chance to go on a day trip to a museum with your DC's.

A chance to have a holiday. Even in the UK.

Security of tenure - not facing the possibility of a house move every 6 months, and the upheaval for your DC's that that may entail, like new schools, childminders, not having to worry about being unable to afford the travel to work, nothaving to worry about being able to get to work on time because you rely on public transport and now you have had to move further away, the journey being too long after childcare drop offs.

Being able to afford life insurance. My biggest worry as a Lone Parent with disabled DC's is that I will not be able to give them any security if I died suddenly. Which IS a massive risk given my health conditions. The worry of that is unimaginable unless you have been in that situation.

Being able to afford Contents insurance, so that if you were burgled, you might have a chance of actually replacing things.

Being able to run a car, which increases your employability, and therefore increases your wage.

Not having to use your DC's birthday money to pay for a school trip.

Being able to think that you can help your child financially to get a degree. My DS1 wants to go to University. He wants to read Medicine. I can give him NOTHING to help him with that. If he goes to Uni, he will have to work in order to eat. Which isn't conducive to studying medicine.

How many more things do you want to define my idea of wealthy?

It's NOT that I 'resent' someone for 'daring' to have life insurance. Life insurance is eminently sensible, and even more so when you have DC's.

The issue is that these people are complaining that they have no money after paying for this life insurance when people like me can't afford life insurance and the peace of mind it gives you.

Instead we have to worry about what will happen on the event of our death BECAUSE we can't afford life insurance.

It is insulting to people like me to complain that you have no money left AFTER paying for Life insurance when you have the ability to buy PEACE OF MIND.

I don't resent the posters that are saying they are hard up after paying for life insurance, I am insulted by them insinuating that they are hard up because they have chosen to pay for that peace if mind. You are only hard up if you can't AFFORD to choose to pay for that peace of mind.

You are not hard up on an income of £60k unless you make choices that MAKE you have less disposable income.

It's silly to assert that you are hard up AFTER paying these things out, when people who are REALLY hard up don't have the choice to pay these things out, in the case of life insurance, or a 3-bed terraced house in a Naice area that is secure because it is bought, rather than a 2-bed flat in a grotty area that is insecure because it is Private Rented, or a car that enables you to have a higher earning potential when a TRULY hard up person doesn't have the choice of having a car at all.

We'd all be happy with what we have if we all had a decent living standard that £40k would offer you.

You can't be truly happy when you don't know that you'll have a roof over your head in 5 months time, or that you will be 'let go of' at work after 23 months. When you see your DC stating longingly at this year's must have toy, and even your 6yo knows that looking is the closest they will get. When your tummy is rumbling because you have gone without food to ensure your DC's are fed.

I'd be a lot happier if I had a decent standard of living.

Your post has just made me cry bumblequeen. What a lovely idea.

Couthy you are damn right. So many people don't know how fortunate they are. I can pay my bills without worry and I'm ok to pay if the car breaks down so I consider myself wealthy.

Don't agree re tax credits though. They are necessary but they shouldn't be- wages should have to keep pace with living costs. Shareholders taking profits while the government effectively subsidises costs can't be right.

There is a lot of shit on this thread. Tend to agree with the posters who say it is no-one's business what someone else earns. You cannot tell by someone's pre tax income how wealthy or otherwise they are if they are a wage earner. I have friends on £12k each who have houses and cars that their parents have bought for them and have no children and are in actual fact very well off!

Bumblequeen - your idea is well intentioned, but could easily backfire. It could come across as very patronising to walk up to a stranger and offer to buy a toy. If you wish to help, (very commendable) you'd be better to hand in some toys to your local Social Work Child and Family Centre, where they would be very gratefully received

Couthy - great posts

CelticPromise - that's the issue though. The low paid don't actually give a shit WHERE the money that covers the discrepancy between their outgoings and their in comings actually comes from.

It doesn't matter to them whether it comes in the form of Tax Credits or a higher NMW paid by their employers. As long as it COMES. So they can afford a basic decent standard of living that means they don't have to choose between hearing and eating.

That's not their problem as long as the money is there to pay their bills.

They just need that money to be able to pay their gas bill AND eat.

Hearing = heating.

It's for the policy makers to decide whether that money comes from the state in the form if Tax Credits, or the employer in the form of a higher NMW.

These are the people trying so hard to just survive that they haven't got the TIME to worry about where it comes from, just whether it WILL come, IYSWIM.

Being poor takes up a lot more time, you know. I add an extra hour+ onto a shopping trip just GETTING to the supermarket and back by bus because I don't have a car. 6 minute journey by car. 30 minute journey by bus.

And then there's the shopping around you have to do that is a PT job in itself. I'm luckier than most - I have a family member that pays for the Internet for my DC's homework, which has the added benefit that it shaves at least 6 hrs a week off my 'shopping around for cheaper items' time.

Add all that to a FT job, AND add in the fact that they have NO way of affording to outsource anything. All housework done by them. All shopping done personally rather than online. Often no dishwasher. No possibility of hiring a gardener or someone to help with ironing. Tackling their own DIY rather than getting in a handy man.

Spending hours trying to make an impossibly low shopping budget stretch to cover every meal, and to try to provide your DC's with a healthy, balanced diet while you do so. Trying to find the money to pay for that school trip the whole year group is going on. And realising that the only place you can find that money is your already meagre food budget.

So you go without food yourself so that your DC can go on the trip.

And I disagree with couthy, people should not be defining "wealthy" as having enough. Wealthy is having more than enough. Having enough is having enough and not having enough is not having enough, let's call a spade a spade. I find all this "quit moaning about little tristram's school fees, you don't have to choose between food and fuel like us" stuff really ignorant. If you are on a low wage you are often entitled to housing benefit and top ups to your income relative to your costs and personal circumstances. Saying you should be rich in all circumstances on £60k is as ignorant as telling people on £15k they should earn more.

Realistically the only people I know who have the lifestyle described (bear in mind I live in the northwest) of ironing, cleaners, gardeners, detached houses, two cars, nice holidays that you all are attributing to a family living on a single pre tax income of £60 are my parents who have a joint pre tax income of around £200k and my friend who's husband is a criminal barrister and who herself has several good jobs.

£60k

Know it's idealistic but in a first world supposedly civilised country, a family with two full time workers should have be able to earn enough for decent housing, clothing, food, pay bills, some kind of holiday a year even if it's a week camping. Something is far wrong when peope even in full time working household (no matter your job) can't do this.

Though I also disagree that everyone works just as hard as other workers. Some jobs expect way more then other jobs, stresses, special skill sets etc. My husband earns good money but he works at times crazy hours, lots of stress and self discipline, works away from home for weeks on end. You can't just lump all jobs in together. Of course some very important jobe are undervalued and deserve more money and respect.

As a supermarket shelf stacker, I worked longer hours in a far more tiring and physical job than I ever did as an on site architect.

I would personally say that shelf stacking was the more pressurised job, despite the deadlines in architecture. And I would say it was far more stressful too.

But also there isn't much point in Working in a stressful and difficult job such as banking when actually your labour is only contributing to the destruction of the economy... I know a lot of people on low incomes who are working long and difficult hours in stressful jobs and I also know that no matter how responsible your job your working conditions and job security are usually much better on £60k than £16k

i think people work just as hard in most jobs just in differenty ways.

My dh earns what I consider a good wage...not £60k. But a good wage...
I would never be able to afford a cleaner, someone to do my ironing, garden...and we don't live in the SE either but in Derbyshire!
We don't live a lavish lifestyle, holiday in the uk and don't drink or smoke.
Due to my own chronic health problems it is unlikely that I will be able to work for the near future anyway. Would love to send out my ironing!!
So I shop around for bargains, buy my dc clothes from e bay and asda.
I can't remember the last time I bought clothes...must be 18 months.
But it's all fine.
We have a roof over our head and food in the cupboard.
We have no savings, and no way if getting any built up anytime soon :(
And that seems mad to me...
That even on a good wage, we have to scrimp and save and are not able to save a penny.
I can't imagine how my parents brought up 3 kids on £10k a year....and they both worked. My dad still does even though he is 66.
I think that will be the reality for many of us in the future...working well past 60-65.
Which is fine if you want to, but his many will be forced to due to poverty?

I work bloody hard in 2 jobs, one is caring for the elderly, one as admin in a popular bike shop. I earn 13.5k a year.

When I am qualified as a midwife which will take me aprox 5 years, I'll earn 21k.

So yeah, 60k is a lot for me. a lot. And something I'll probably never achieve.

But then you are making it sound like every higher paid, professional job is a doddle, much less hours and stress.

@Offred It's actually pretty ignorant to claim that everyone working in banking is contributing to the destruction ofthe economy (I do not work in banking).

As for working conditions and job security - I bet someone working for £16K in the UK in the public sector had better working conditions than I did when I was in Kiev last year. But as a general rule - it depends on the sector. Private sector people on lower wages have lower and worse everything. Public sector people on low wages gave much much better T&Cs and protections than people on much higher wages in the private sector.

I think ghost ship illustrates the point - to her £60k seems a lot however on an income of £13.5k you would qualify for top up benefits making your income higher than your actual pay so it isn't a fair comparison, then you have to take into account your real income divided between the number of people in your family. If you have a lot of children after housing and tax you may have the same income as someone on benefits per person until you get to around £50k, I have actually calculated it before. You simply cannot take someone's wage as evidence of their level of wealth.