To think that 60k is a lot of money to earn a year?!

[MinkSlink]

I think it is a lot of money to earn per year but it seems a lot of people on mumsnet don't think so, am I in the piss poor minority here or what?!

£800 to DP : explain
£1600 mortgage : split - have got our gas, water and electic down to those of two people in a flat, not 4 people in a big semi
£550 : shopping and fuel : split

seriously, when I make my clients STOP using cash and put EVERY transaction through their visa card, their spending drops 25%
their faces when I take scissors to their credit cards (I've done it three times) are a PICTURE

Talkin My father arrived in the UK as a refugee (Germany 1939), my grandfather arrived in the UK as a refugee (Russia left 1917, arrived England via India 1921) my Grandmother's grandparents arrived in this country as refugees and worked in the Bryant and May factory in the East End (Ireland 1850s). I agee entirely with your second sentence. My family members stayed and worked like buggery - they allowed me the choices they didn't have. I think that ethos has been passed on to our children and I pray they are grafters.

married
ONLY if you have made them REALISE what the alternatives are
which means ensuring they KNOW how much things cost AND how rarefied the atmosphere in private schools is.
Remember I was private school, posh Uni till 21 : I did not have an effing clue.
My kidd do.

Roffle at marriedinwhite: "dh earns far in excess of £15k a month" - you really can't stop yourself can you?

But as you are so minted, and what with you earning more like cashew nuts than peanuts, then I think you could pay your cleaner more than £10 per hour - that would be a nice thing to do with all your "champagne" earnings. How about bumping her up to £11 or even more?

Ooooh, for a comparison - here's a breakdown of my household incoming and outgoing:

Incoming - £1900

Outgoings:

Childcare - £550
Rent and bills (water, council tax etc) - £900
Groceries - £400
Fuel - £120

As you can see, we spend out more than we earn, and that's just on essentials. We still have to find a way to pay for our own things. I have to find £20 a week for train fare to work etc.

We have no savings, no chance of saving, no spare cash at all. When we say we have no money, we don't just mean that we are a bit skint, we mean that our cards don't actually work.

mintyy
there are two DISTINCT issues here
having a HUMUNGOUS income is as it is : I have friends in the 0.01%
both in this country and around the world
I have NO problem with people being rich
SO LONG AS
they realise that they are
and that the understand that their lifestyle rests on the heads of the poor.

What PISSES me off is the people who reckon that "everybody in my town earns over £60k"
they are narrow minded and full of shit.
£60k is a BIG salary - anywhere in the world ...

there was a brilliant programme on ch4 a couple of years ago that looked at 2 identical families that earned £50,000 per annum

In the thames corridor the family had a 3 bed pretty victorian terraced house. Kids at local school 2nd hand volvo (or similar) Mum has to work to afford a holiday to france to stay in friends house (so reasonably small cost)

In North East of the country the same earnings allowed children to go to private school, Mum not work, 4 bed detached "executive"home and 2 holidays a year.. one Europe one long haul. 2 cars in the family.

It really bought home to me wwhat house prices can do. the 3 bed terrace cost significantly more each month than the 4 bed detached in the north east. with the relevant living expenses.

I think they know better than their peers talkin. They haven't lived it but they do see it (they are London children). I work with young people, some of whom were involved in last summer's riots, our ds has been to football with lads from some of London's worst estates because DH is actively involved with sporting initiatives for them and works in collaboration with the LA and the Met and once a month collects them and takes them to football and in the summer organises cricket and coaching for them. It isn't a lot, I hope they get more out of it than DS but he is at least aware, and DH puts something back.

I also volunteer for a homeless project and cook for it for a week of every winter (not a lot I know) but the children are aware of it; talk about it; know I disappear for a week and understand that many of the homeless are those from the Eastern block who in the recession have fallen on harder times here and don't feel they can return to their families when the chips are down and are not eligible for benefits.

I do agree it is difficult where one's children are concerned but I couldn't see them hungry or cold just so they could experience it.

My father died when my son was 5. It was not until my son was 10 (the age of my father when he came to England) that I truly understood my father's suffering. He was not here for me to share that understanding. I have tried to explain it to my son; my father had no family left to explain it to me.

All I can do is hope our children will be workers and will put something back. They both seem to have social consciences and I hope they will.

Why are you telling me Talkin?

less you my dear, that the fuckwits who might think its aimed at you :-)

Minty my cleaner, like me and DH, gets the going rate. I don't count the minutes she works and whilst I pay her for five hours I know for a fact that she does more like 4.25 because I can see the time she come and the time she goes from the alarm settings. She does what I need her to do and I would never challenge it.

Mintyy are you saying only those on less than £60k should have an opinon. Would you like to narrow this forum and the breadth of experience and difference on it?

Everlong I think it was about 5-6 years....
house had cost them about £200,000 in comparison to the £450,000 that the 3 bed had cost

I bought my house in 1996 for 63k
in 2008 I put a MASSIVE extension on it (cost over £130k)
next door is currently on the market (unchanged since 1992) for £255k
we live opposite a SHITTY estate
the "true value" of my house, I reckon to be £200 k - with the work done
houses are still 20% over value
NB
ALL council tax discounts should only apply up to band E
and
any house with nobody on the electoral roll should pay TREBLE council tax
(yes, as an immigrant ex student I know where that will hit - and rightly so in terms of use of council resources)

Do you MEAN it to come across as if you are SHOUTING some of the TIME? Cos it's QUITE hard to read! [hwink]
Sadly in a lot of the wealthy pockets, the people who work in petrol stations, coffee shops etc won't be living in said town as there's no way they could afford the house prices.

CAPS = very deliberate

and if they have to commute into your town to serve you - rather than walk - you should be even more aware of how disproportionate life is

Funny turn of phrase, that's all . They're not just serving me, and presumably you, too, avail yourself of people "serving" you in shops etc? I've never said I'm unaware of the discrepancy - don't think anyone on the thread is, are they?? just going round in circles now...

First thing. When people are saying that all those bills eat all their salaries, they do not take into consideration that people who do not pay such bills consequently do not receive the pleasures these bill are for. If one receives 60k and "has no money" because everything is spent on nursery, mortgage and car credit, it should be compared with the situation when one "has no money" and lives in a shared house, can not afford a child, and travels mostly by bus. Both "have no money", but the first person is way richer than the second.

The other thing. When people are expressing their ideas of normality, they judge by their circle. There are ways to guess pretty close what is their social strata, and built on that an attitude to their norms. Say, if a person posts links to a hotel where they spent a weekend with family, I go the website and see a price per night that is larger than my monthly salary, well, I will never take seriously any "all normal people do" this person may ever say.

Yes- "I'm poor now because I've converted my hard currency each month into an array of hard and soft tradable goods" is not poor!

kensington kat where did you get the Wandsworth shared ownership figure from? The only reference I found to 60K was that people with an income over 60K wouldn't be eligible for grant properties. There are quite a few properties with HA where the required income is below 60K.

Have read and commented on this thread with some interest as its got more heated.

Some people seem to think 'oh well those who choose to live in a 3 bed semi only have themselves to blame if they don't have oodles of cash left over at the end of month compared to someone living in a 1 bed flat.'

Someone else resenting a poster for daring to have life insurance.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE HAS IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.

Grow up. Different people have different things. No one here is claiming to be happier as a result of money. Sometimes more money causes unhappiness.

I dont begrudge those who earn £60k if they are humble enough to realise the choices and lifestyle that earning that amount offers them, like loveweekends.

What I DO begrudge is those earning £60k who bleat about how hard up they are, and how they have no money left after running two cars and paying house insurance and life insurance and blah blah blah.

If they would just realise that two streets over, there is an entire family trying to survive on a HOUSEHOLD income of just £12k, choosing whether they should make their children wear their coats and gloves in bed so they can afford to pay for a pair of school shoes, maybe people like me wouldn't get so annoyed.

You may be living to your means. Try surviving for a month on the portion of your income that would be equivalent to one month's wages for a £12k job. See what you can and can't pay for. See how much you have in the bank at the end of that month.

And then realise that the amount you have left in the bank at the end of that month is how much luckier you are that your career is valued more highly. Realise that it's not that those who are lower paid are working less hard than you somehow, but that their hard work is simply paid far less than your hard work.

Both groups are working as hard as each other. The care worker who looks after your Granny is working just as hard as the architect in their office.

The shelf stacker hefting 20kg boxes around is working just as hard as the Solicitor that pops into the supermarket on their lunch break to buy a sandwich.

The hospital cleaner is working just as hard as the Doctor doing ward rounds.

The bin man is working just as hard as the Headteacher putting their bins out before they leave for work.

It IS all relative - in as much as two people can work just as hard, in the same town, with the same living costs, but one gets paid £12k and the other gets paid £60k, because brains get paid more than brawn.

But what would happen if the 'brawn' refused to go to work for £12k, and downed tools collectively, in a mass strike for decent wages that DIDN'T leave them reliant on state top ups to survive?

The country would disintegrate.

It's all well and good saying the country needs those higher paid people, the 'brains', but how would these people continue to do their jobs properly if the lower paid people, the 'brawn' just, well, STOPPED?

The 'brawn' in this country just aren't valued for their contribution to Society, and how they enable the higher paid 'brains' to continue working effectively. If they WERE valued, they would either be paid a living wage, or those who are the supposed 'brains' would USE that intellect to see that benefits such as Tax Credits are paid to subsidise businesses to keep them afloat, as a higher wage bill would probably drive many businesses to the wall.

Tax Credits aren't a Social experiment gone wrong, as Tories are so fond of saying. They are a sound economic policy, and the Tories haven't thought through the effects of dismantling the Tax Credits system without a sound alternative economic policy such as a far higher NMW to replace them.

That money tat helps the low paid 'brawn' to survive HAS to come from somewhere,or you will see mass homelessness and starvation.

Outgoings minimum £19k. Incomings £12k. Discrepancy £7k. Tat £7k HAS to come from somewhere or basic living costs are not being met.

Should it come directly from the businesses employing these low paid staff, in the form of a considerably higher NMW?

Or should it come in the form of a Government organised Tax rebate scheme in order to keep these businesses afloat?

Because if these businesses go down the pan, it's not just the low paid that lose their jobs...

Or is it going to come from nowhere, sending living conditions for the low paid back to Victorian standards, simply because some people are assuming that because THEY find it hard to live on £60k, they should pay less tax, yet not have to pay higher wages to their employees.

Some people in the higher tax brackets seem to want to have their cake and eat it - less tax by cutting the Tax Credits costs, but no increased cost to their business that EARNS them that higher wage. Who loses out? Not te person on £60k.

The problem is, these days, is us pesky commoners don't know our place, we are too well educated, and we irritate the MC and UC by expecting to have a decent standard of living that doesn't include choices between heating and eating.