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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think David Cameron has done a wonderful job?

150 replies

toweraboveyou · 24/10/2012 14:58

Dave Cameron is on a crusade to get everybody off benefits and into work, even those he thinks are probably lying about their disabilities. Therefore, he has obviously created enough jobs for everybody. Otherwise, he'd just be a fuckwit, right?

OP posts:
londonone · 24/10/2012 18:51

In what way do I support career politicians? Can't stand them in fact! Creating a positive climate is different from creating jobs per se. They can affect things but not control them. Please do le me know what you think the govt isn't responsible for as it is hard to tell from your posts. Also why did you suggest that I support career politicians? Hae you not read the thread?

Latara · 24/10/2012 18:52

Well i think DC gives the impression of being 'mr nice guy' when he's actually an uncaring bastard.

Due to developing Psychosis I'm signed off sick until i get made redundant through ill-health or demoted to a basic lower grade job role - if so it will be less than 16 hours a week i suspect.

I have serious mental health problems; until they're sorted out i can't function properly.
I would love to be able to work.

I'm maxed out on my overdraft & credit cards because except for £80 a month DLA i'm not getting ANY BENEFITS AT ALL.
I'm still waiting to hear about my Working Tax Credit application - a joke because i won't be sodding working by the time i get them!

I'm getting basic pay while off sick but it doesn't meet the monthly bills, let alone food etc etc.

Oh well. Fuck it. I'm just going to go & SPEND MORE ON THE CREDIT CARD BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE SHIT & I'M IN SO MUCH DEBT ALREADY A BIT MORE DEBT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!

Latara · 24/10/2012 18:53

But it's ok because when i get reassessed for the DLA i will be miraculously cured by clever Mr Cameron. Wonderful.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 18:57

Well you don't seem overly critical of them, quite opposite in fact. Are you now saying you think the current administration are doing a bad job?

"Creating a positive climate is different from creating jobs per se."

Yes, but one leads the other. This government have done nothing to achieve the first goal.

What do I think the government should do? The same as they do now, and in almost every other civilised democracy: they as, public employees, should provide us with services we all use, and without which we would live in anarchy. And you haven't answered: do you believe we need public services?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 18:59

In fact, thinking about it - are you a member of the Taxpayers Alliance?

londonone · 24/10/2012 19:04

Sorry I thought the public services quip was a rhetorical question as you seemed happy to answer it yourself! Yes I do believe we need public services. I have not said anything on this thread that is positive about the current govt, read back and you will see that. No I am not a member of the taxpayers alliance! IMO creating jobs is not a public service that can be delivered like education or the NHS and that is clearly where we differ on what the govts role is.

londonone · 24/10/2012 19:08

One more thing you say the govt should provide services. Where do you think the funding for these services should come from?

PropertyNightmare · 24/10/2012 19:08

Yanbu. Fuckwit about covers it as far as Dave is concerned

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 19:11

Of course, it can't be delivered in the same way the NHS etc. But, unless they keep up their end of the bargain, business, especially small ones will stagnate, and eventually go under. I've worked in the private sector for my entire working life, I'm now self-employed, and my opinion and that of every other small business owner I know is that this government are expecting us to achieve the impossible. Costs are going up, income is going down, under those circumstances we can not grow. They have to change their fiscal policy, if they don't things are just going to get worse.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 19:13

"Where do you think the funding for these services should come from?"

I dunno - maybe we could have this thing were people pay a percentage of their income to pay for useful stuff. Also, we could tax luxuries like alcohol ... we could call it, umm, taxation.

londonone · 24/10/2012 19:14

What would you like them to change?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 19:23

For businesses?

Amongst my clients and peers the biggest problems are rents, business rates, and the difficulty in borrowing. And specifically in my sector (technology) the introduction of stupid new laws that achieve nothing, but cost us a lot of time and money.

Thinking of new businesses, the universal credit is going to kill them before they even start.

There is probably more, but that would do for starters

perfectstorm · 24/10/2012 19:28

Perfec storm - given tha HB was calculated at a median rent and is now going to the 30th centile it hardly smacks of homelessness. Maybe people will have to live in smaller more cramped accommodation, people live way way way beyond their means thanks to benefits incl tax credits. They are now going to find out what hey can actually afford and many won't like it.

Sorry, you are either under a misapprehension or being disingenuous.

Rents were set at the bottom 50% average of an area for the size of property required for the person/family in question. They are now set at the bottom 30%. As previously mentioned, the overwhelming majority of properties are not available for people on benefit, so no, 30% of properties are not within their grasp at all. A cursory inspection of the criteria required on Rightmove rental ads will make that very clear to anyone willing to see. If you pretend to the absolutely untrue claim that 30% of properties are still available to people on benefit then yep, homelessness unlikely. But most agencies now require employers to verify income, as well as standard credit checks, which also impacts working people. One of my husband's staff, who seemingly claims nothing other than CTC, struggled to find a flat for his family as their income is quite low proportionate to local housing costs, his GF was on SMP at the time, and agencies require double the rent in income before being willing to let somewhere. The agencies needed the insurance as they offer landlords a guarantee. (He was okay as family stepped in as guarantors; not everyone has that resource.) If you look at that simple figure - a third of property of the right size is available to people on benefits - it sounds fine. But that's such a partial picture that it's also complete rubbish. Very few people rent to people on benefits/on low incomes, so reducing the available properties yet further makes finding somewhere a huge issue. And those who have to move out and find somewhere else are also having to find rent in advance and provide deposits before they get their old places back, and whatever amount of their deposit they're entitled to. How is someone on benefit supposed to save a grand? Please explain?

And you're perfectly correct in stating that many people live beyond earnings with tax credits. That's because rents in much of the country mean that without tax credits, people can't afford to live at all. Which takes us neatly back to the "starvation/homelessness" issues mentioned earlier. I'm not quite sure why you struggle with the concept that a working woman on 16k a year before tax (a not abnormal wage for full time admin or call centre type work, in the area I live) can't afford to house herself, her son and her daughter, pay bills and council tax, plus food, clothes and transport, on that wage alone. She will rely on tax credits, pure and simple. "Not liking it" is not the same as "unable to live". Tax credits changed the landscape within which many people just couldn't afford to work, because their poverty was greater than it would be if they were on benefit. How is a return to those days beneficial, in social or economic terms? It very obviously is not. Daily Mail style soundbites have the benefit of sounding refreshingly simple and "just common sense" but they don't bear any relationship to the facts, which (as always when dealing with human lives) are more complicated than that.

It's nice to think "poor people have been spoilt. Now they will have to live on their means!" But as "means" is "level governments have always determined as the minimum required to live" I think it should not require too much intellectual effort to grasp the fact that cuts mean "less than the level governments have always determined as the minimum required to live." And I genuinely fail to comprehend how anyone can justify that and look themselves in the mirror, tbh.

lalaland30008 · 24/10/2012 19:46

I also don't understand who these people are who have been living beyond their means.

Basic benefits = living in any property be it council or whatever private rent will take you. Have you actually seen some of the private rental properties that they let to people on housing benefit some are barely habitable. It = shopping at Aldi or Iceland, not paying a bill so that you can buy your kids school uniform. Letting the electricity run out because you can't afford to heat/light your home.

In work/disability benefits = a bit more of a dignified life for working, they means you can probably comfortably pay the bills, run a cheap car to get to work, feed and clothes your children without having to not pay the electricity bill and maybe if you're careful have a takeaway once a month and a cheap holiday every other year.

And I know this from first hand experience not from reading the Daily Mail and believing that the woman up the road had a boob job and bought a flat screen with her beneftis money.

What part of that is living beyond their means? Unfortunately a casualty of that means that there are people who abuse that system, but how does punishing everyone help?

The fact is because of the economy, because of public sector job cuts and because of cuts to in work benefits, many, many more people just won't be able to work and I foresee a very grim few years with even higher unemployment than we are seeing now which of course will have a knock on affect on the economy.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 19:51

"What part of that is living beyond their means? Unfortunately a casualty of that means that there are people who abuse that system, but how does punishing everyone help?"

This ^ exactly.

HerBigChance · 24/10/2012 19:58

He is a bumface.

I see he managed to insinuate himself into the photos of the Paralympians meeting the Queen.

Bloody bumface.

perfectstorm · 24/10/2012 20:01

londonone housing benefit is calculated including social housing, thus lowering the 30th centile mark at which level the only thing charging rent that low is social housing - which is unavailable

Yep. This breakdown on social housing by Shelter indicates that 16% of the population live in social housing, which is now in such short supply that what does come up isn't likely to go to anyone not seen as extremely vulnerable. That being so, the much-bandied-about bottom 30% of properties becomes bottom 14%. Almost all of which aren't available to those on benefits.

perfectstorm · 24/10/2012 20:02

lalaland30008 - really good post.

lalaland30008 · 24/10/2012 20:03

Please londonone come back and tell me who is living beyond their means? Unless you're talking about people taking on mortgages that they couldn't really afford, but what were their options? Social housing isn't widely available, private rent is extortionate and people were practucally being begged to take out large amounts of credit.

I really don't know anyone on benefits either in or out of work that has a particuarly cushy lifestyle.

There was a thread on here earlier about people not having showers are weird, it was quite laughable, do you know how many people out there can barely afford a new duvet cover let alone get a shower fitted.

lalaland30008 · 24/10/2012 20:11

Oh and one more thing to add, I happen to know from the work I do that every week there are people with children relying on food banks as they've run out of food completely, people relying on crisis loans because they can't buy any electricity tokens. Overcrowding? Well I don't have any facts and figures for you but there are lots of people already living in mouldy one bed flats with children, hostels waiting to be housed, sleeping on families floors with their children. And all of this will only get worse.

Ok responsibility, perhaps they shouldn't have had the children, perhaps they were in different circumstances when they did. But either way the children are here now and need to have some kind of basic standard of living. What should we do, take them into care? Because that works out well doesn't it?

I don't have the answers but what is currently happening certainly isn't the answer, it might please some folk to hear the feckless are having their benefits stripped but it will cause no end of other, deep long term problems, worse I think than what we've already seen.

PumpkInDublic · 24/10/2012 20:25

I went to the jobcentre today. I was given a letter with some new rules from effect 22nd Oct. If you fail to take part in a "mandatory work activity programme" (workfare) your benefits will be stopped for 13 weeks for a first offense, 26 weeks for a second and 156 weeks for a third. I've been claiming for 3 weeks now and these schemes are already being pushed at me. But I'm also expected to spend 30 hours a week job hunting according to the new contract.

I also have no childcare, I will be able to afford childcare when I have a job, I cannot afford childcare if I am not being paid. This is my problem, so if I can't work unpaid and afford childcare on my £70 a week (nevermind food, travel and bills) my benefits will be stopped. Luckily I have enough interviews that clash with the scheme so I'm ok for the minute.

So, a full time unpaid job, plus 30 hours job hunting while requiring free childcare? I look forward to receiving my Job Centre Brand Time Machine and Magic Wand to allow me to meet all of these criteria. DC can suck my ass.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 24/10/2012 20:56

I agree with those who say things are going to get much worse. Most of the cuts haven't even been enacted yet. How can the Tories and their supporters not understand the consequences of what they're doing.

Darkesteyes · 24/10/2012 21:26

Exactly PumpkIn. Its obvious to me they are trying to make it as hard as possible so that they can sanction you. What they are asking you to do there is unacheivable.
And then you have people like londonone come on here and say workfare is a choice
Did anyone see Emma Harrison of A4e fame get grilled on Channel 4 news tonight. Was an interesting watch.

Phacelia · 24/10/2012 21:53

I cannot stand this government. Really cannot stand them. I now understand how people felt about Thatcher.

I feel so utterly betrayed. Cameron had a disabled son. How can he screw over disabled people so entirely? I simply don't understand how a decent human being could do that when he must have friends with disabled children who feel vulnerable. And how does Samantha face him at night? I couldn't stay with a man who did what he is doing. At the very least surely she is a decent person? I have read so much online by very, very frightened disabled people; people who are vulnerable who might be driven to suicide by the benefits situation. I have one friend right now who has been assessed as 'fit for work' and she is one of the sickest people I know. The idea that she could work is utterly laughable. I am so scared about when they bring PIP in. It is immoral. And it is not about money, this issue, because if it were truly about money, there would not be talk of spending £50million on the WW1 commemorations, foreign aid would be slashed, all those big corporations which don't pay tax would be leaned on. I dread to think about how much money has been spent in Iraq and Afghanistan killing innocent people too.

This list was produced by Sue Marsh The thing the government has done have included

Halving Support for disabled children,

Scrapping the "Youth Premium" that ensured independence for the most profoundly disabled children;

Scrapping Crisis Loans;

Cutting housing support for disabled people;

Cutting council budgets so hard that they cannot provide social care to some of the most vulnerable people in our communities;

Introducing PIP to replace DLA with the aim of cutting 500,000 vulnerable people from the figures without a single assessment;

Introducing unlimited, unpaid work for those with significant illnesses or disabilities;

Cutting all benefit support for sick and disabled people appealing their ESA decisions;

Lying to the public about Work Capability Assessments and failing to make them fit for purpose while disabled people suffer and die;

Encouraging hate crime by constantly feeding the media "scrounger" stories about the sick and disabled;

Closing Remploy factories, throwing over 1500 working disabled people on the scrapheap; Exaggerating fraud rates and implying all sick and disabled people are "feckless, festering, stock";

Lying about the levels of disability benefit fraud repeatedly and feeding politicised press releases to the media;

Turning neighbour on neighbour and fostering a climate of hate towards the sick and disabled; Forcing cancer patients to the jobcentre;

Privatising our health service despite promises that you would protect it;

Rationing access to NHS treatment;

Cutting respite care despite promising you understood and would help;

Suggesting in PIP that a sick or disabled person can "bathe" if they can wash above the waist only;

Re-classifying paraplegics as "fully mobile" if they use their wheelchairs too well;

Blocking improvement in Atos assessments;

Lying about Workfare repeatedly to the press;

Falsifying internet documents to make your workfare lies look like the truth.