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Original poster

Which toilets a F to M transgender student should use

191 replies

WongaDotMom · 18/10/2012 17:27

DH teaches at an FE college. One of his new students this year is transgender (female to male)
All staff and students are aware of his transgender status. (Not sure about any ops or medications, will ask DH when he gets home)

The student wishes to use the male toilets. Staff had a meeting regarding this issue, trying to avoid any issues with the male students using the toilets at the same time, and decided that the student should NOT use the male toilets, but allocated him use of the disabled toilet instead.

He was offended by this suggestion, as he does not have a disability, and is taking a stance by walking the 10 minute journey to public toilets in town where he can use the male facilities without discrimination.

I think the college should allow him use of the male facilities, DH disagrees, so I am putting it out for the MN jury to decide.

Who is BU?

OP posts:
Original poster
WongaDotMom · 19/10/2012 14:29

I have had another thought! Toilets for the disabled are always unisex IME so why should the able-bodied have to use segregated toilets? Or vice versa?Surely this is discriminatory!

OP posts:
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 19/10/2012 14:49

Couthy, I think that anyone who's mental health was at risk from a transgender woman using the woman's toilets probably has fragile mental health in the first place and probably needs some help to deal with that regardless of who is using women's toilets.

I don't mean that to sound dismissive of your experience or in any way derogatory, but I don't think it's fair to effectively accuse someone of being a risk to women when they are not.

Unisex toilets is one idea, but I don't think it's a perfect solution. I can't say I'd want to use one, and I can't see why anyone else would want to if there was a toilet for their gender available. You may as well put a tannoy announcement on any time someone bypasses the male or female toilets in favour of the unisex ones telling everyone that there is either a couple having sex or a person with gender issues in there. There would be an unavoidable stigma to using them unless you got rid of of individual sex toilets altogether.

OpheliasWeepingWillow · 19/10/2012 14:53

Wow. I can't believe this is even a debate. I have used men's loos SO often when there is a queue in the ladies. Transgender schmender. He should be able to use any loo he likes without it becoming a public policy decision. What's the risk? Transgender identities are not catching. Weird.

TheCollieDog · 19/10/2012 14:56

Why is this even a question? MtF or FtoM, those in transition should be using the lavatory of the gender they're transitioning to.

So male loos for your DH's student.

Can someone remind me again, why is this question even being asked?

foreverondiet · 19/10/2012 15:00

Definitely mens' toilets. Can't believe college have a problem with this.

It might be different as women's toilets are all cubicles but I would expect a pre-op M-F transgender to use woman's toilets.

kim147 · 19/10/2012 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EldritchCleavage · 19/10/2012 15:02

It isn't a question, because it is not legal to stop a FTM transgender person using the men's loo. The college seems to think they have a discretion to ignore the law and cobble together a stupid 'solution' of their own devising.

honeytea · 19/10/2012 15:15

I don't understand why unisex toilets are an issue, when you sit next to a man on a bus he has a penis it's just hidden away, it's not like men are going to go around comparing penis size in unisex loos. What do people who feel mentally hurt by using the same toilet as a man do when they go to houses where men live?

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/10/2012 15:16

Feasibly, a women could have been assaulted by women in a female bathroom. It is a spurious piece of logic to say that because someone has had a bad experience caused by a person of a certain gender, their distress should affect someone else's rights. If you changed the gender to colour, you can see how spurious this is... Say she was assaulted by a white person (assuming she is black) and therefore should not have to use toilets with any white people again... Doesn't work, does it?

I'm not dismissing her experience at all. However, someone who is now identifying as a man, living as a man, being man is not a woman. He should be able to use the men's loos if he wants.

Original poster
WongaDotMom · 19/10/2012 15:23

honeytea And what about disabled people who don't get male or female disabled toilets - they have no choice but to use a unisex toilet! Isn't this is discrimination?

OP posts:
LineRunner · 19/10/2012 17:20

Well, why have separate male and female toilets in the first place?

Original poster
WongaDotMom · 19/10/2012 17:26

line runner Exactly!

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 19/10/2012 17:30

Well, why have separate male and female toilets in the first place?

Because too many men can't aim and men's loos are often a bit niffy. Never walked past one or had a DH come out gasping for air? Grin

Lueji · 19/10/2012 17:30

Mostly because men like to pee standing up and have urinols, and women don't appreciate walking by while they do it.

Or because they are designed by men and they don't like to wait.

Some places do have unisex toilets.

As disabled toilets are single units, it doesn't matter if they are male or female.

VivaLeBeaver · 19/10/2012 17:31

If a transgender male to female was in a woman's loo you wouldn't know that he had a penis. If (s)he looks and dresses like a woman then there would be no reason to know.

There's no urinals in there so he'd be in a cubicle having a wee not running about willy waving.

So I don't understand why some people would feel threatened.

VivaLeBeaver · 19/10/2012 17:32

I've never been in a unisex toilet but I always assumed there'd be no urinal - that it would be all cubicles.

Lueji · 19/10/2012 17:34

I think your OH is BU.
If he looks like a man, and feels like a man, he should use the male toilet.
Conversely, as he's not disabled, he'll attract criticism by disabled users.

I'm sure men using the toilets won't feel threatened, will they?

They won't catch the female to male virus. Wink

GrimmaTheNome · 19/10/2012 17:35

Unisex loos should all be cubicles - but some of those cubicals probably need to contain urinals. I really don't want to use a sit-down loo that some man who insists on peeing standing up and can't aim into the hole has sprayed. Bleugh.

Choufleur · 19/10/2012 17:35

If he is living as a male and is in the process of gender reassignment (even just starting down the process by dressing as a man) he should be allowed to use the male toilets. I would think he would have a case the college for discrimination if they don't let him use them.

Lueji · 19/10/2012 17:42

MTFs can even wear jeans, tops and flats. They don't even have to wear full make up.

Good God, I hope not!

Would that mean I'm not a female????
I (almost) never wear make up, about 50% heels, and often jeans.

Alisvolatpropiis · 19/10/2012 17:44

Male toilets. Quite obviously.

I personally don't like the idea of unisex toilets. At all. Men have TERRIBLE aim! Also,disabled toilets are unisex because only one person at a time can use the one single toilet. It's not like there are 6 cubicles is it!

I really don't see where all this "young people are so much more open minded,they should be fine with it" comes from. Young people are pack animals trying to asset their own identifies and notoriously react badly to anyone who doesn't fit in with "the norm". FE colleges educate people 16+ correct? Many 16 year old have narrow life experiences and simply cannot relate to anyone who hasn't had the same life experiences. The ability to do that comes when a bit older for most.

Alisvolatpropiis · 19/10/2012 17:46

*to add. I feel badly for this boy. It's a hard decision to make (to make the change) when still so young. He is being brave. The college should stop holding meetings about what toilet he can use and instead have meetings about how they will ensure he is not bullied/excluded during what must be a difficult time.

Lueji · 19/10/2012 17:46

It might be different as women's toilets are all cubicles but I would expect a pre-op M-F transgender to use woman's toilets.

Why?
He could still use the cubicles in men's.
If he feels like a man and is supposed to be living like a man, he should use male toilets at all times.

And most men might be surprised but not necessarily upset if a woman uses their toilets.

If there are issues with bullying or men making comments, then it's for the student to complain to the University or use other toilet facilities.

crashdoll · 19/10/2012 18:36

I can't believe there are people on here giving pathetic reasons as to why this student should not be allowed to use to male toilets. We're in 2012 now and we have laws to protect people like this student.

PaintbrushJo · 19/10/2012 18:53

I agree with the World Health Organisation on this whole issue.