To wonder why the elevenplus forum parents put their DC through it when

[safflower]

they are so stressed themselves?

Apparently it is results day. There are parents beside themselves whilst they wait for the 4pm email. Some have had children in tears this morning worrying if they have made it. If the parents are suffering, I cannot imagine what those poor children must be feeling.

Er yes that was my point.

alistron: But can you see though why in areas where it is still in place it's not actually moving forward social mobility

Completely agree it's very divisive. I did end up calling the eleven plus the social selection test. I loathe the whole system, even more after taking part in it.

I think I'm glad there are no grammar schools anywhere near me, it sounds incredibly stressful for all involved. Luckily the local secondary school gets very good results.

I think there is a difference between doing some preparation with the help of your parents and going to a formal tutor.

A tutor will actually teach parts of the curriculum that haven't been learned yet. Bearing in mind that in SS areas the local state schools don't support learning for the 11+, and the test is taken in October right at the start of year 6, there is every chance that a bright child who is capable of learning at a GS simply hasn't learned everything that will be covered in the test. Especially in maths. Where parents don't know the curriculum or aren't very good at maths, a child who has been given a couple of practice papers at home is at a massive disadvantage to a child who has been tutored by someone who can identify where there are gaps in their knowledge and then teach the things they need to know.

Tutors have expertise in teaching techniques for NVR and VR, children often learn better from someone who isn't their parent, tutors who have years of experience of a particular schools tests and who can ask their ex pupils what was tested in last years exams are easily going to be in a better position than most parents.

Parents have access to a huge amount of information on the Internet about what they can do to help their child, but some parents simply don't have the skills needed to tutor as well as a tutor can. I'm sure many parents can do a brilliant job of tutoring, especially when they are teachers themselves, but on the whole I don't think that tutoring is at all the same as help from parents.

What I am trying to say, please don't be naive and listen to parents that say they had not tutored and an able child will pass due to their natural ability.

The work isn't that difficult and there are plenty of books out there that can remind you of the bits you've forgotten. We had to teach ds2 algebra (in fact the way it's done these days made more sense than the way I was taught at school). Buying some Bond books, some specimen papers and using the internet is a lot cheaper than £25+ an hour.

We had quite a lot of pressure to use a tutor, and some gasps when we didn't. I'm glad we didn't as a) could continue to pay for ds1's SALT (far more important) and swimming lessons for ds2 and ds3 and b) it meant over the 6 months ds2 was doing papers and new work I got a better idea of the things he finds hard. Also made it easier for me to work out whether the grammar was even the right place for him.

I would recommend Peter William's 'practice and pass' series and Susan Daughtrey series. Both are excellent!

My daughter went to grammar school. I didn't tutor her - we bought a book containing a few past papers - she did about half of the book and understood what would be asked. Preparation is completely different from tutoring. In tutoring they are taught how to answer the questions - they are shown the same questions again and again. Preparation (in my case) took an hour of going through one paper and showing the type of question that comes up and then a couple of hours of practice.

It would be cruel to send a child into any exam without preparation.

My neighbour's children went to Saturday school for two years; I don't think that is the point of the 11 Plus.

Only few grammars in Surrey. None near us. Soooo glad. That both ds's won't have to do this.

DD1 took the Kent Test last year, and DS has taken it this year. I keep on eye on the eleven plus forum for two reasons.

1. Sometimes stuff comes up on the board before it becomes common knowledge. This year, for example, the highest possible score increased (from 420 to 423) - and we were never told about this (okay, it's not actually important - but it might have been). I keep an eye on the board in case there are rumours that the format of the test is due to change.

1. It makes me feel very sane, and non-pushy.

But it's impossible to protect our children from the stresses of the eleven plus. We told our DC that passing the test simply gave them a wider choice of schools, and there are plenty of good high schools which offer an excellent alternative to grammars. However, at school the children do a brilliant job of winding up each other about the eleven plus - treating it as a life or death test. Which of course it isn't. No single test can ever determine your entire future.

My dd took and passed the 11+ test . The irony, is after all the preparation. she actually wants to go to the Catholic school.
One must remember that as jeee has said, one single test cannot determne your entire future

No grammars in Surrey LA, some may have a Surrey postal address.

LaQueen, you need to look again at the results of the comp. Many children there will get equally good results as the grammar school, particularly if it's an outstanding school. Because it doesn't cherry pick pupils, it obviously will have pupils who don't achieve a high number of GCSEs. However, in an outstanding school the pupils will be achieving above and beyond what they might have expected elsewhere. That's why they get an outstanding grade.

It sounds as though you've got a great alternative and if your child is bright, there's no reason to think she won't do just as well there.

Did you posters who put your dc in for the 11 plus actually go to a Grammar school yourselves.

Just wondering

I did eleven plus and went to what is now a Super Selective. My time there was shit.

I would not have put my dc through it unless they were naturally very very very bright. So I did not.

"Put a naturally clever, but never seen an 11+ paper before child in the 11+ exam room, with a group of equally, naturally clever children who have had professional tuition and the clever, but untutored child won't stand a chance."

How sad that this is now the case.

I passed, many years ago with no tutoring & without having previously seen an 11+ paper.

Maybe this is why more people get through & there is little value now placed on exams/a university education.

I did safflower - well for 6th form.

I'm undecided whether the grammar is the right place for ds2 tbh. It seems a very different place from the grammar school I went to. I guess we'll see when he starts. I don't think he'll have a problem keeping up (seeing as he passed without tutoring :roll eyes: ). In the end it came down to he wants to go, and I figure if he hates it, it'll be easier to move from the grammar.

I think there will be a huge divide in grammar school results when the new GCSE's come in.

Until now, those who have been tutored for years to pass have actually appeared to get very good results in their GCSE due to the exams being alot of coursework etc.

Going back to the old O Level style exams is really going to sort out the chaff from the wheat. So I believe from there on, people whose children are borderline and tutored to get in are going to struggle.

Just as it used to be. I was at a very well known GS many moons ago. We did O levels. You had to work so fucking hard, it was awful. I never felt much good. There were those super intelligent people who were always top. I never stood a chance.

Same here. I went to a top private school (abroad) and dh went to grammar and got a maths degree from a top university.

There is a good table on 11+ fourum, it shows how many kids go to oxbridge and other RG universities from each state school. Our local grammar sends 10% to oxbridge and over 70% to RG. Our local excellent comp sends 4% to RG and none to oxbridge.

I suppose that there may have been tutoring, but my parents wouldn´t have been able to afford it & would also have had the "if you´re good enough you´ll get through" attitude.

In any case it certainly wasn´t the norm.

You took the exam-passed or not tbh.

I used to work in a Kindergarten & the amount of parents who were push, push, push-wanting kids to read & write before starting school at 4.

I know that we all want the best for our kids & for them to do their best but I do wonder what is going on sometimes.