My friend's ds has autism, she would like my ds to spend more time with him.

[BatwingGirl]

I find this very unfair on ds (6) as he has made other friends at his school who want to come round and play. Both boys have pretty much grown up together, seeing eachother since they were babies. They go to different schools but as her ds has become older, it's become more challenging to have a decent playdate without tantrums every 2 minutes. I've tried to see my friend more while the boys are at school, but she tries very hard to time it for after school so that the boys can be together. I didn't want to say it to her and have said I'm busy after school, weekends I've stopped going out with her and the two boys as there will always be a scene in town. She ends up leaving him with me, walking off in a temper herself. It's very stressful.

For the last few weeks she has been coming round with some excuse (to see the kitten, to see the new rug, they made biscuits) and I can't exactly say no. She asks my ds to play with her ds (7) in his room. I don't like them being out of my sight as I know her ds can get very aggressive if he doesn't get his own way. My ds who does not know about his condition ends up very frustrated and scared. I'd like to keep my friend but not force my son to have to be his friend if he doesn't want to. I know if I say it to her she will really take offense. She feels like she has no one else and other mums from the school have dumped her since his diagnoses.
I just want an easier life. When Ds's other friends are round, they are like angels compared to my friend's ds.

Tbh my first reaction was that you are not being a very good friend. I get that you need to put your son first, and agree with that, but I think it surely must be possible t find ways to continue to support your friend and her son without it having a negative impact n your own son.

You say he doesn't know about diagnosis. Is this deliberate? Is it something you can have a conversation with about with your son? It might make he world of difference when they play together if he has a bit of understanding and you might find t brings out a lovely caring thoughtfull side in your son. Or maybe do things where you are always supervising so your son doesn't be to feel scared or intimidated.

Ultimately if you r starting to feel resentful about seeing them, or if you think there is no way to see them without is damaging your family then you need to knock it on the head and only you know whether that is the nly solution left.

I havent read the whole thread but the point that stuck out from your op was this:
My ds who does not know about his condition ends up very frustrated and scared. I'd like to keep my friend but not force my son to have to be his friend if he doesn't want to.

At 6 and 7, I think its a good idea to let your child know about conditions and how people are different. Perhaps take the time out to talk to you son about autism in simple terms and how the condition makes your friends little boy react.
Then at least your ds will perhaps understand a little more. Maybe have a word that your ds uses when he has had enough of playing with him and at that point you draw the play date to a close.
And if you do not want the boys to play upstairs, dont allow it.

Also, perhaps go out, to a neutral venue to meet.

Your friend needs you and your support. Both your children need support to go forward.

good luck, i know it isnt easy

Does her DS want to play with yours?

Sometimes their is an assumption that an autistic child wants to have friends and play with others. My DD has actively avoided this and found play dates very difficult when she was younger. She would get incredibly cross or upset with anyone who tried to join in her games (she had an intricate imaginary world). Lots of girls did try, only to be rejected, up until a year or so ago. DD is 14 now.

As she's got older she's started to chat to a couple of people. I've found it really hard - like she should have friends - but she found it harder to try and have them.

there is an assumption. Lord, I am poorly today and my spelling is suffering .

I have tried some of the good advice on here already. On friday I made sure that all the toys they would play with and enjoy were downstairs in a nice big box. Nothing they needed from upstairs. I told my friend that I had just tidied his room upstairs and my mums coming round the next day so need it to be clean and tidy (which is the truth tbh). Cooked a nice meal (because he does like to eat:) Some movie choices we could all enjoy and I know he likes, Rio, Rango, Puss in Boots.

But still it all went pear shaped from the start. Her ds starts hitting her with toys immediately. Irritating ds with his flapping his hands all over my ds face randomly and then running off. I feel like her ds is sort of bullying my ds by snatching and touching him all the time to irritate him which he finds funny. He is dominating my ds and I don't like it as ds cried several times that her ds is pushing him and he's not playing with him anymore.

Oh BatwingGirl I feel for you and your friend. It is a horrible situation for both of you. Her child is her responsibility, your child is your priority. Sadly, that is life. You are being a good friend by seeking advice as to how to handle this. You cannot carry on with your child feeling like he is having this boy thrust upon him purely because he is your friend's son. At the same time you cannot just "dump" your friend in her hour of need.

I think the suggestions of meeting at neutral venues at set times are ideal. Also, talking to your son about the autism diagnosis is imperative. However, your son must never feel frightened or as if he has to put up with aggressive behaviour because of this. After all if they are already 7 how long will you be able to force a friendship.

I think you are going to have to talk to your friend however awkward that is.

I hate these AIBU when you get all these perfect mother's saying how cruel you are and how you should have more compassion and empathy. You have done nothing wrong and please don't let these type of posters feel you have.

Flapping is a stim. It isn't designed to irritate your child.
The boy is highly stimulated/excited and it can manifest itself as repetitive movements over which he has no control.
My son will flap his fingers and laugh in a room on his own. It isn't designed to wind up or irritate.

The fact that you both think it is deliberate isn't good tbh

Desperately

I don't think there are 'perfect mothers' on this thread

I m pretty sure it is mostly parents of children with autism speaking from often bitter experience.

Your friend sounds like she could do with some support in the ASC community. Perhaps there is a parent group that she can go to? When DD was diagnosed, I was offered parenting classes by our local health authority in conjunction with the team of people who work with ASC children. It was very helpful for me.

He isnt bullying or trying to irritate he is stimming, he is probably (if anything like my ds) overwhelmed with the situation and all the input going on and cant calm himself, i really feel for the friend tbh

It is going to be a vicious circle.
The boy is really excited by the prospect of playing.
He gets over excited and stims and can't manage his behaviour
Children back off so the opportunity to play gets rarer
The rarer the opportunity to play the more excited he is next time...the more he stims...

Batwing is it your friends choice that your son isn't told about her sons autism or yours? I ask because the is a boy with autism in the year above my son and I heard my son talking to my daughter about what a naughty boy he is and I explained that he doesn't always mean to be naughty and sometimes children have behaviours that they have trouble controlling. My son smirks when he gets told off out of nervousness and I usedd that as an example and at the age of 6 I think he did a pretty good job of understanding without me having to go into too much detail.

Pagwatch i was referring in particular to the post by niminy earlier. Lots of mothers on here have children with autism and the OP has come on asking for ways to help whilst prioritising her own child.

I actually agreed with your advice earlier but i think telling the OP she should just dump her friend as she obviously can't be bothered and that she is a bad friend is totally wrong! The OP is trying to help surely?

She does sound very desperate, but I definitely don't think you are being unreasonable. I know first hand exactly how hard it can be to spend time with a kid with ASD who is very volatile (I have 2 boys with ASD). If he's having frequent temper flareups then I'm thinking that being forced into a social situation is no nicer for him than it is for your DS.

I agree with other suggestions of being open and frank with her. Acknowledge that she's in a horrible, potentially isolating situation and suggest that if you meet up with the boys, you do something where they can be together without being forced to interact. If I meet up with friends and their kids, we do something like a walk in the park or a stint in a playground, where it's not necessary for anyone to have to work too hard at it and it doesn't matter if they don't exchange a single word.

At 7 your ds will have quite well developed social skills -- way more sophisticated than a child with autism. If he understands the kinds of difficulties that the other child has he will be able to display those skills better.

If you are dealing with autistic behaviours understanding is the key. As Pagwatch says, flapping isn't deliberate but it's a sign that he's excited. The touching might well be because he is excited (and perhaps also anxious) about being with your son. People on the autism spectrum often find it difficult to learn about other people's personal space. This is something your friend could work on with her son. He may be behaving in a way that is very unpleasant, but he is not bullying it is more likely that he will be bullied himself by NT kids.

Your friend needs help to understand and manage his behaviours and to help him to learn better ways of behaving. It is just a thought but there is a wealth of experience and advice on the SN Kids board on MN -- perhaps you could recommend it to her? As everybody has said, support for your friend in RL is vital but it is also hard to come by. MN might be a good place for her to find some strategies.

Then name that post and respond to it. Like I did.

And niminypiminy apologised for that post about three posts later.

Dismissing the honest responses of poster who are experiencing this situation as the preening superiority of perfect parents is not helpful.

Flapping is a reaction to excitement or sensory stimuli, it can be unnerving but is not usually a conscious activity.

Snatching is about the inability to understand reciprocal rules, sharing is a hard construct to teach a child on the spectrum.

if a behaviour results in actual harm, no matter how intentional, then action needs taking: but it is categorically not bullying. Autistic children are more likely to be bullied than to bully.

I don't think it's very fair on either children that there is no discussion of his condition. If you both understood a bit more about it (and if you don't know that hand flapping is something that children with autism do a lot, then it doesn't sound like you know much about it) you might find it a bit easier to deal with.

Does your friend talk to you about what support her DS is getting or explain his condition to you?

I second (third?) the advice to help her by seeing what other support she can get for her son -- sometimes easier to look at as a less involved third party. Do you think she's a bit in denial still about the extent of his difficulties, and thinking he'll just learn to play without help?

What support are they getting at school and outside already, do you know?
You say her DH appears to have 'checked out' (sadly not uncommon); has she any other family around?

Some of this might be hard to talk about whilst dealing with tantrums, though, so might be better over one of those girly chats and coffee you were hoping for. (She's probably got more on her mind than enjoying girly chats, but everyone needs a break and she might be persuaded.)

(Desperatelyseekingperfection I did apologise for speaking in anger because of my own hard experiences. I've tried to redeem that by giving the OP some constructive advice. God knows I would never say that I am a perfect parent -- far from it.)

We know all about Denial not just being a river in Egypt in this house, ooooh yes.

Mind you, these days DS can generally hold it together enough to 'pass for normal' (his phrase, guys, so don't eat me). The tantrums and flapping days are mostly over, but he does say that it's very hard work and he has to 'be normal' by conscious effort.

Lougle- hugs, ds2 moving up to a school where very few knew his siblings was huge for him: he now gets chosen for things (says a lot about some teachers too...), friendships, responsibility- he loves it.

Op- your son can directly benefit from this relationship if you are savvy. We all hope to raise understanding, caring children and teaching him that spending some time being with and understanding a child who has a lot more challenges than himself can have rewards is a huge positive: at his age he will need a tangible reward (cake with mummy on way home or whatever) but long term there will be pay offs. You don;t know- maybe your son will one day parent a child with ASD, think how valuable that experience will be then! I speak of this with experience: when ds1 was diagnosed having attended one of the first inclusive schools proved a big plus for me.

Like Lougle I am also that mother. Ever since year 1 when my dd1's "differences" started to become more obvious mums at the school have avoided me like the plague. DD1 is now in year 5, she has 1 friend who she plays with in school, I have tried to speak to his mum to invite him over for tea but she just completely ignores me even when I stand in front of her and say hello. I'm totally not arsed about her ignoring me, I really wouldn't want anything to do with the snotty bitch or all the other snotty parents who have avoided me for the past 5 years. I'm so sad for my dd1 though who is never invited to parties, never invited to people's houses and it seems never has the opportunity to have friends over. In contrast to dd2 who has party invites and invitations to people's houses coming out of her ears.

I feel so sorry for this woman and her son.

My son can do all these negative things on playdates if he is not given the right cues, and he is 10, and quite mild on the ASD spectrum. I am finding it very difficult to take him to friends' houses. He is not invited round to play with anyone. He has happily negotiated some parties over the years though, and caused no problems in other people's houses, where there were set games and rules - the "organised party situation." I've learnt that he needs to know exactly what is happening, and he has to know what the "rules of engagement" are. So for example with his cousins he will play happily with them if it is football or some specific game with a clear objective, but he is useless at just hanging out with them, imaginative play, chatting. He needs a bike, or a ball, or a tree to run to, or someone to race or a dressing up game with rules. He wants to play with others, but only up to a certain point, then he will withdraw. He also needs an adult to be present and supervise, not interfere or tell him off but just keep a framework.

Could it be that the visitor actually finds his visits to your house stressful and that is why he is behaving so badly. Maybe he feels the tension and is reacting, and his mother has lost sight of this in a quest for normality. Maybe as another poster said, he doesn't really want to do what she thinks he does, which is to be in someone else's territory, not quite sure of what is happening next.

I've found my son is a 1000 times better behaved outside in a park, or in a situation where he knows what he meant to do, like a visit to a museum, or a trip. Then he is a charming companion. But tell him to "play" with another child and he just doesn't know what he is supposed to be doing and goes to pieces. Role play, taking turns all that, he is fine with, as long as it is modelled by an adult to start with.

I find my own son bad enough when he is not getting on with his sister's friends, and trying to disrupt their play, so I am completely sympathetic to you wanting to change the existing setup but I think you need to talk to her, in a very goal orientated way, about ways to make his visits more successful. That could mean making sure she is there, that you do routine activities there, that the visits are short and sweet, or that you meet in some other setting. Don't make all the other excuses you have made, just focus on what will make his relationship with your child more fruitful, and the time you spend together more productive. You don't have to be a saint with unlimited patience, you just have to try and see what will make his visits WORK BETTER.

P.S. I have loads of friends whose children I never invite round (just because they don't get on with any of my children or I don't much like them), I just think that in this particular case she needs you to be that friend who does occasionally have her child round, but possibly the way you have him round needs to change.