AIBU to expect my staff to work overtime or more than just 9-5

[TeeterTotter]

I manage a large team of 20 staff and I have two members of my team who refuse to do anything beyond the core hours in their contract. In at a set time, out the door right on the dot like clockwork.

If these staff members were junior I wouldn't expect more of them but they are both on a managerial salary of £41-£44k per year --I think at this level there is a general expectation that you're generally more engaged and committed and that you'll work at home or stay late when needed. I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. In a perfect world no one would have extra work or overtime, but that's just not the way things are in 2012!

One of the staff members is a mom to 2 kids and she says it is impossible for her to stay late (due to childcare commitments) or to do work on weekends (she's too busy with the kids); the other is a single guy who has no appetite to do more than he's contracted to do.

I find this situation very irksome, especially because I have two kids but do a lot of late nights and work from home, which I think is expected at my level.

DP thinks I need to stop imposing my protestant work ethic on everyone I work with, but I feel these staff members aren't pulling their weight. I'm not a slavedriver but I expect more. Are I reasonable or are my views skewed? I would really welcome the opinion of others.

Yabu. Work shouldn't be your whole life. You will miss out on important things like love.

Cross post with you there OP.

I think the problem is that you said you do a lot of late nights and work from home. This did make it sound like you were expecting them to work late regularly rather than just when an unusual situation demands it. That is how it read to me and on that basis I thought you were being unreasonable.

I am not so sure that is what you mean based on your last post so I don't know now.

I know it's AIBU but the responses on this thread do surprise me tbh. Some staggering assumptions were made about the OP for a start, but also the numbers of people being so horrified at managerial staff working over contracted hours.

I have clients in a huge range of sectors, from manufacturing to technology, leisure, business services, non profits and many others. I can't think of a single one where managerial staff literally work only their contracted hours, or demand overtime for every minute extra. It's definitely not presenteeism either, it's working hard, going the extra mile once in a while, being committed, staying a bit longer to finish something rather than expecting junior staff to, that kind of thing.

That's not to say that exploitative employers and a presenteeism culture aren't both problems, because they are. But there's a grey area between clock watching dashing out at 5 on the dot, and being expected to work very long hours all the time for no good reason.

YANBU at all. Staff like that drive me mental

Think of it like this OP, if you went to your local supermarket, picked up a packet of Hobnobs, then opened another packet, took a couple more out then proceeded to the checkout and paid for just the first packet.

That would be stealing, wouldn't it?

Yes, I'm afraid YABU. The UK's shity work culture is one of the major reasons that we suffer from so much depression, anxiety, alchoholism and obesity. Try being part of the solution.

Exactly flowery. I bet if I started a thread saying I earn 40k, aibu to want to work only my contracted hours I'd be told to get a grip, I'm paid what I am to work extra when needed, and the respondent always works 60 hour weeks because that is the reality

OK, OP, time for a deep breath. Iknow from being on the receiving end that it's really hurtful to get flamed. But in between the fairly forceful posts, there are some measured and constructive ones. I think (re-reading it) that my post was not one of the mean responses, so hopefully this will make some sense. Your second post reads rather differently from your OP. The first one certainly gave me the impression that you expected a long hours culture as a matter of routine. You've now clarified to say that it's a matter of covering an occasional crisis. So I guess what I'd want to know is what the quid-pro-quo is - can you offer staff who've put in extra time to cover a crisis a bonus, or time off in lieu? If they have childcare issues, can you pay for an out-of-hours nanny service as a business expense?

I work for the NHS on a 'management' grade - and my contract is 'hours as required'. When things are going smoothly, I am able to stick to 30 hours per week (0.8wte), but when there is a crisis I stay late if neccessary. I don't get overtime on my pay band.

I thought this was the case for all 'management' grade jobs.

BigBoobied - sorry if I was confusing in my original post. I was really just having a whinge about high-paid staff who show no commitment. It happens but it's not ideal.

At some level there has to be that feeling of responsibility. When I worked as a museum manager on 40k (high in the sector) we would occasionally be called out if there was a problem at the museums after hours. Can you imagine if I got a call on the weekend saying that the museum is burning down and my response was: 'sorry this is going to have to wait until Monday. I am busy having a life outside work.'

Really? Think I live in a different world to the rest of you.

Yanbu in my opinion. If you are working in an agency or in house in my experience a marketing/PR function often works late and out of hours to suit the needs of the business or client. If you aren't willing to do that you are in the wrong industry in my opinion.

I agree that if you work effectively and get work done in 'normal' hours there is no need to stay late regularly but if a middle management employee can't see that some overtime is necessary they aren't that committed in my view.

I think measuring employee productivity levels overall is most important though.

Teeter - where I work, there's 3 basic categories - the people who have day jobs, the people who are on shifts to cover a 24/7/365 business, and the people who are paid a retainer to be on call some (but not all) weekends. Your "museum burning down" (or in our case, "we're within 6 hours of having to ground all air traffic over Europe if we don't fix this") example are covered by this sort of retainer, and we have enough staff to have a rota system, so people aren't on call every weekend (so you can arrange to go to your sister's wedding, or whatever). If you have this sort of level of crisis to handle, perhaps you as the boss should be thinking of strategies like this sort of rota system.

I work 60 hr weeks, If they want me to work 80 I prob will but I would gr paid for the extra 20 hrs

I work on a contract which requires me to work the hours needed to get the job done. I am pretty efficient so I generally get to go on time and try very hard to do so. However, there are days when I have to work late, or be in the office very early to get things done. I do it without complaining but my work have made it very clear that flexibility does work both ways.

If there is something which I really have to be at, I get enough notice to arrange child care, I can work from home if necessary and no one quibbles if I have to go early for a dentist appointment etc so long as I pick the work up when I can. This applies to all staff. My previous job had no flexibility but expected 60-70 hour weeks. It paid very well ( a fair bit more than 40k) but it had a huge attrition rate when people took the generous maternity or paternity package and then didn't go back.

"None of my staff work long hours nor do I expect it as that would be a problem, but when a crisis comes up I would expect the staff member at 45k to come forward rather than relying on the goodwill of the staff member on 20k."

On that I agree with you. If you'd mentioned in your OP it being only occasionally, and it meaning that other staff had to pick up the slack I think you'd have got a different response

Thanks LurcioLoves... so nice to get a measured response! I can understand if my original post looked like I expected staff to work all hours all the time but that's not the case. However my feeling is don't work in PR if you don't want to deal with late night phone calls!

A bit off topic but is a team of 20 'a large team'?

Stepping up to the plate when needed should be a given, OP.

Trouble is, some of us have been on the receiving end of poor management and short staffed teams for too long. It has certainly clouded my judgement. I put my foot down in my last 'proper' job with regards to what I would give in terms of working overtime. Bizarrely, I was more successful in that role than i had been for a number of years.

The childcare thing is quite important really - I never stay a minute past my set hours because I have a carefully timed double pick up and dopr off schedule and if I stayed any later I'd have a child or two sat on the pavement waiting for me. Having said that, in an emergency I would be happy to do a bit extra in the evening or at the weekend (from home!) and would not expect to be paid overtime on my salary. Which is most definitely less than 45K.

I would not be happy to do it if it was going to seriously impinge on my life outside work or if my boss wasn't flexible with me in return.

YABU. Thank god I'm self employed and am able to have a healthy work/life balance. There is no fucking way I'd work late unless I'd messed something up and had to make good, or it was an emergency. No wonder there is so much stress and depression these days with work expectations like this

Actually, I agree with Lurcio - we also have a system whereby people who are on call over a weekend and would need to go into work in case of emergency are paid a "retainer" style fee, with a bit extra if they actually get called out (rare). But this is a different situation to having a temporary heavy workload and needing a bit of extra input to get the work done on time.

Yanbu. I work ft and this week alone I have a work black tie event on Wednesday evening (in London and we don't live there), meetings and work the rest of the week and this Saturday a work event which will take me away from my 2 young children (4 and 2).

Today I left at 3.20 to pick my kid up from school, emailed in the car, dr's surgery and when I got home. The last email I sent was half an hour ago.

I think it's down to the individual. I have colleagues who use all excuses to bugger off at any time. Interestingly their reputation at work is mud.

I understand that you are asking sometimes in an emergency but it is not always simple for other people. I have to do virtually all drop offs and picks up for my DS, if i have an event at work and need my DH to pick him up then I have to sort it out at least the day before as he works further away than me and needs to rearrange his day to do enough hours.

I have to leave work on time to pick him up in time and I do feel guilty a lot of the time when my colleagues are working as I leave. (I start 15 mins earlier than them so I can leave 15 mins earlier) but then I know I am not spending half the day reading the Guardian website like others and am more productive even though I am not 'in work' for as long. I'd love not to always have to leave on time as I also miss out on all the fun stuff such as pub visits etc but it comes with having a child. Interested to know how the OP sorts out last minute childcare as I can't do it same day.