AIBU to expect my staff to work overtime or more than just 9-5

[TeeterTotter]

I manage a large team of 20 staff and I have two members of my team who refuse to do anything beyond the core hours in their contract. In at a set time, out the door right on the dot like clockwork.

If these staff members were junior I wouldn't expect more of them but they are both on a managerial salary of £41-£44k per year --I think at this level there is a general expectation that you're generally more engaged and committed and that you'll work at home or stay late when needed. I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. In a perfect world no one would have extra work or overtime, but that's just not the way things are in 2012!

One of the staff members is a mom to 2 kids and she says it is impossible for her to stay late (due to childcare commitments) or to do work on weekends (she's too busy with the kids); the other is a single guy who has no appetite to do more than he's contracted to do.

I find this situation very irksome, especially because I have two kids but do a lot of late nights and work from home, which I think is expected at my level.

DP thinks I need to stop imposing my protestant work ethic on everyone I work with, but I feel these staff members aren't pulling their weight. I'm not a slavedriver but I expect more. Are I reasonable or are my views skewed? I would really welcome the opinion of others.

Where are all the people on mn who work 70 or 80 hour weeks? I was under the impression most did. I don't thi.k it is bu to expect some commitment and some work over 9-5, most people I know work over hours to get the job done

teeter

Can I just say that if 90% of your team need to put in overtime (paid or unpaid) on a regular basis then you are not a very good manager to said team and need to restructure workload or hire more staff.

They are working their contracted hours, if that is not good enough for you, you need to look at how you determine contracts in the future.

I frequently put it unpaid overtime for the sake of my patients, but I most certainly do not expect it of everyone I work with, particularly from those with other commitments when they're work during their contracted work hours is more than satisfactory. If they can and do, well that's great, if thy can't or won't, also fine.

The people with the largest responsibility for companies expecting you to do above and beyond as routine are those who do above and beyond as routine.

It's not good.

Staff received a (semi) fair wage for set hours, they should be paid more for more.

I do not think workaholic martyrs do the employment market and worker's rights any good at all.

For that YABU.

A good manager would find a way to achieve targets within the alloted time, or put in place process that enable those targets to be met without going above and beyond contract. A good manager would not HAVE to work 15 hour days, unless of their own free will.

Actually OP where are you? You've not responded once to anyone since your OP as far as I can see. Maybe you're working overtime??? If so, how did you find time to Mumsnet?

Once, a few years ago, I might have been maybe a little sympathetic to your expectations. Then DH, who was on just such a management contract and routinely working 60 - 70 hour weeks in an incredibly high pressure job slid down the wall at work and was carted off in an ambulance with chest pains and critically high blood pressure. He was very ill. On his return he re-negotiated his contract back to a basic 38 hour week and took a bit of a pay cut. Now he won't work a anything more than an hour over his contracted hours - ever - without there being equal time off in lieu. He won't do extra days for extra money. Or cut short his holidays. Or answer the phone to work on his days off. It drives them fucking crazy but he's well again and intends to stay that way.
You being exceptionally unreasonable and I really hope it doesn't take someone getting ill to make you rethink your position.

All the people I know who are regularly expected work overtime are the only people I can ever get old of during the day. If I need to phone them, they answer or call me back shortly. If I email, they respond straight away. If they tell me they are going to organise something, like a night out or whatever, I know they do it when they are at work.

It's swings and roundabouts. I presume they get to do this because their bosses know they will stay until the work is done. The people I know, like DH and I, who work pretty much the hours we are officially paid for, wouldn't dream of doing anything non work related in work time. Nor would we/they be able to.

Agree with the work what you are paid for as long as getting it all done with the proviso of extra in extreme moments.

I'm always suspicious with a first poster not returning that this will either end up in the Daily Mail or on The Wright Stuff!

Madge I hope your dh is better,and these "be grateful you have a job" employers can be made responsible for stressed out employees.

YABU.

People can be good at their jobs and committed without having to work overtime or extra hours for free.

I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. yes but this doesnt give unscrupulous employers the right to take advantage of their employees good nature nature does it...why should people work longer hours if they dont want to? Some people work to live not the other way round!

yabu.

unless overtime or toil is offered.

if i had the attitude that given the current unemployment issues people are facing that ment i could treat my staff like there lives didnt matter,i would very much expect to find myself with no staff and i wouldnt be very surprised.

my staff know that i know that there personal lives and children are as important to them as mine are to me,and i respect that at all times.

its one of the reasons why i have extreamily low staff turnover.

if you have lots of left over work not being done then you dont employ enough people it really is that simple.

Thanks cooking - he is well and we're both convinced it's because he broke free of this insidious British work culture thing where you're not a 'team player' if you're not prepared to die for your work! It's just bullshit. It's probably going to take some high publicity court cases before people like the OP even come close to getting it. Fuckers.

is this a reverse AIBU?

if staff work core hours competently then they've met contractual expectation
you can be as workaholic as you like,but can impose on others
don't expect gratitude as you overload with work,has boons or ot been offered

I think this is one of those ?it depends? answers.

Are these staff members actually producing the work required in the time they are in the office? If they are efficient then don't penalise them for it ? you should be looking to make the most of this skill.

If the staff you are talking about are not producing the work needed ? is this their issue because they should be able to do it or is it a lack of prioritization of work in the wider department/organisation?

And if they are not getting the work done that they should, for whatever reason, what happens? Does the load fall on someone else ? maybe someone more junior? If so that?s unacceptable and it?s someone?s job (possibly yours) to make sure that doesn?t happen.

Are these staff members hoping for promotion? If they are hoping to move up but at the same time indicating that they are not prepared to be flexible about getting the work done (either through longer hours or working at home in the evening or weekend) then others who are prepared to do that will get the career advantage. That might be bad for society as a whole (personally I think it is and I also can't help but notice that the most time efficient and productive colleagues I've ever had were working mothers) but in the office workplace it?s the reality.

In the perfect world there would be roughly the amount of work that we could all complete in 9-5 and we?d all have a great work life balance. This is almost never true for the managers and senior staff and less so now by a long chalk when many firms are desperately trying to survive on fewer people than they really need.

As others have pointed out, if the majority of your team (including yourself) are expected to work overtime on a regular basis then there is something wrong.
Either you are understaffed, or the staff don't have the required skills, or there is a (time/project/staff) management issue or a combination of these.

To expect people to work overtime as a matter of fact is very unreasonable imo. The fact that you have a skewed work/life balance doesn't mean that others have/want the same.

You're right madge. My bosses are currently not talking to one of my colleagues because they are scared - she was pressured into doing 80 hour weeks while heavily pregnant and ended up bleeding in hospital and almost lost her son. But still thy don't seem to be able to make the connection between overworking staff and their staff ending up off sick for months and burning out !

They do on the other hand adore the staff who waste time and so stay late (we charge clients by the hour). Inefficiency is rewarded

Whilst I totally agree that somebody of their level should be prepared to put in the hours if there is a tight deadline and something important needs doing urgently, I don 't think it should be a regular thing. £44k isn't a fortune but it should buy you some flexibility.

On the other hand, nobody should have a job that takes more than their contracted hours on a regular basis. That is taking advantage of them. If they can't do their job in the time alloted and it is a reasonable amount of work, you really need to think about whether they are up to the job and whether you should be either helping them work more efficiently or, if they are slackers, issuing a warning.

Plus if you come to expect this, you end up with the situation we had where I used to work where several of the junior managers used to coast all day and then only start working about the time they were supposed to be going home. They looked great to the visitors to the floor and to their managers because they appeared so commited. However, in reality they were wasting a lot of time and really peeing off all those who did their jobs within their normal hours and then looked like they weren't pulling their weight when actually they were working harder than those staying late.

My DH would probably have agreed with you once, OP, but I have talked him round to the sensible way of looking at this. Unfortunately he now has his own business so sensible hours went out the window which is a shame as I think it is unhealthy for the individual and for family life if you can't keep your work to within the contracted hours most of the time.

YABU and your DP is right.

In my last job we all often worked late without overtime.
But that was because we worked with animals who often refused to go where they were supposed to at the time we needed it to happen, or started to show signs of illness at home time, or gave birth 10 minutes before you wanted to leave..... under those circumstances, we stayed. We did it because we cared for the animals. Late working mostly happened in the summer as that was when it was light outside and animals wouldn't come in, or when they were breeding.
On the other hand, the employer recognised this, and everyone's contracted hours finished half an hour earlier in the winter to make up for potential overtime you'd done in the summer. Plus, my manager used to do things like let everyone go an hour earlier than normal on the day of the christmas party. If you were late, mostly, a blind eye was turned as it was assumed we were all more than capable of getting a good job done without taking the p*, and actually people were rarely late, because we all respected the employer and wanted to be there. Flexibility cut both ways.

Now, I couldn't. I am scraping by as it is, and I'd have to pay for childcare - I can only justify working in the first place because I earn a fraction more than I pay out. Start doing free overtime, and I pay out more than I earn and working becomes pointless.

I think to start demanding people do overtime is the way to demotivate your workforce. If you want flexibility from them, do you show it back? Or is it all take and no give? And actually, what makes you think they want to progress in a career? They might be more than happy earning enough to live comfortably without the stress of needing to spend all their time at work in order to earn extra money they then don't have time to spend on anything fun.

Firstly your team isn't large - I manage a team of 45

Many of my staff are parents.

I don't expect or want anyone to work overtime - though I feel I am a flexible and amenable boss so I do expect them to return the favour and work late on occasion - certain times a year/big late job coming in. I'm talking two or three times a year.

Some people in my office do work longer hours off their own bat but they see it as getting ahead of workload and I tell them to take the time in lieu. None are parents.

And I think the attitude of some working parents (not in my office thankfully) stinks - 'of course I can't do extra time, XX can do it instead - they haven't got kids'. That is really, really selfish and unfair. I've worked with people like this before.

YABU.

Work and money are not everything. I'd much rather be with my family in the evening and have a healthy balance in my life. Their jobs may not be as important to them as yours is to you. And?

I get just as much done as in actually achieved now that I leave at 430 as I did when I was working late every night. If someone can do their job and achieve their objectives within set hours then good on them.

YABU.

And I wonder if you are an employer who expects flexibility but offers none in return?

And I wonder if you are American mom

YABU

I've not read the thread but will later as marking space

I work in a high pressure environment, work extra time when needed etc but that's my issue. Other people work their hours and get the job done. That's great IMO!

Why should they work past 5pm if not obliged to? Pretty stupid IMO.

We work some of the longest hours in this country and are not very productive. So working all hours isn't very sensible or smart.

Where has the OP gone?