AIBU to expect my staff to work overtime or more than just 9-5

[TeeterTotter]

I manage a large team of 20 staff and I have two members of my team who refuse to do anything beyond the core hours in their contract. In at a set time, out the door right on the dot like clockwork.

If these staff members were junior I wouldn't expect more of them but they are both on a managerial salary of £41-£44k per year --I think at this level there is a general expectation that you're generally more engaged and committed and that you'll work at home or stay late when needed. I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. In a perfect world no one would have extra work or overtime, but that's just not the way things are in 2012!

One of the staff members is a mom to 2 kids and she says it is impossible for her to stay late (due to childcare commitments) or to do work on weekends (she's too busy with the kids); the other is a single guy who has no appetite to do more than he's contracted to do.

I find this situation very irksome, especially because I have two kids but do a lot of late nights and work from home, which I think is expected at my level.

DP thinks I need to stop imposing my protestant work ethic on everyone I work with, but I feel these staff members aren't pulling their weight. I'm not a slavedriver but I expect more. Are I reasonable or are my views skewed? I would really welcome the opinion of others.

Sounds like you need another member of the team. If 2 people working full time are needed to, on a regular basis, work way over a normal full time week you should offer those hours to someone else and stop being so tight.

YABU - it seems like you just want them to be seen to be there! They are being paid to work hard during contracted hours, I'm with them on leaving exactly on time, I've always made sure of it and my employer takes no issue as I'm a good worker!

I used to work for a firm like this. Very quick to tell you that you had to be at your desk by 9 and back from lunch at 1.45 but no mention of finishing time. I had to leave on the dot of 5.15 for childcare reasons and got glared at every time I put my coat on. Everyone else stayed until the office head left.

It drove me mad. My contract was clear in that I worked fixed hours and additional hours as required to meet the needs of the office. Nobody ever asked me to work additional hours, they just expected people to stay late to show committment.

Never been so glad to leave a job

Well, OP, you and I seem to be in a tiny minority. The working mum has other calls on her time so, as far as I am concerned, she must leave on time, no question.

However, in general terms, leaving on the dot of 5 is a total no no and means that you will not progress career-wise as fast as someone prepared to go the extra mile. Don't get me wrong - it is totally crap and absolutely the wrong way around - work/life balance all wrong. However, I live in the real world and, as a head hunter, I can tell you that the young single man who is out of the door on the dot will do ok, just not hit any kind of heights that he hopes to. I hope he doesn't think he is going anywhere fast career-wise as he has the wrong attitude.

Frustrating for you, of course.

If 18 of your 20 staff regularly have to work longer than the hours they are paid for then you are managing their workload badly. Either employ more staff or downgrade your expectations. If you can't do either then you are a bad manager.

In most business management isn't a clock on clock off role, having said that I agree with others that you should focus on whether they are doing a good job/demonstrating a good committed attitude, and a good example for their staff.

It's possible to do all those things within contracted hours, however those people who turn up at 8.59 and are sat with their coat on at 4.59 ready to go are not usually those people.

More's to the point, does their contract say just their contracted hours, or does it say hours reasonably required to do the job, or something similar?

Perhaps they would be more willing to go the extra mile if they were more inspired to do so. Sounds like morale is low in your workplace op. Wonder why that is ...

I'm amazed to find out there are employers who don't expect what OP expects, especially for people on salary, please say who those employers are!??

I don't expect to get a job without working extra time. It will happen at every pay level: I did some supply last week for a min. wage job & I went 15 minutes over the 1.5 hours paid for, it was obvious to me that extra was expected and I could lump it if I didn't like it.

I had one employer which pointedly did not state on the contract what full time hours meant: it was up to the employee to interpret. Many people interpreted it as 50-60 hours/week min.

YABU! So what about your 'Protestant work ethic'? You sound like the boss from Hell, tbh.

Yabu. Very yabu.

I work somewhere that pays very well and has the expectation written into contracts that we will work extra where required. Sadly this just means that staff become quickly exhausted and, frankly, can only meet the unrealistic expectations if they are male with a stay at home wife. Everyone with kids just ends up unable to meet expectations, despite their kids being in nursery for 55 hours a week, and they just burn out and quit. The situation is so bad that by the time I return from maternity leave I will know approximately 3 people in my department as everyone else has handed in their notice. If I hadn't got pregnant I would have joined them.

The most entertaining part is that the bosses then complain that they can't hire people of the right quality when they try to replace all the leavers!

If the work cannot be done in the hours you contracted for, you need to hire more staff. If you staff are wasting time during the working day, you should address it. However, your staff have made a contract with you to work x hours for y amount. They are not required to, nd should not be pressured to, work more for free. If you want to change the deal, you har to offer more for the change.

YANBU - I hate the expectation of some businesses that one should regularly work longer than their contracted hours. Obviously situations are going to arise now and again that would necissiate overtime and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect people to help out but if regular unpaid overtime is required then its unreasonable. That's my view, but then I work to live not live to work.

I think people are being a bit hard on the OP. We don't know what hours she's expecting.

If she's expecting 60 hours a week for the sake of it, she is BU.

If she is just hoping they might be at work in time to start on time, and perhaps stay an extra hour once a month to meet a big deadline, that's a bit different.

First poster, posting and not returning ...

YABVVVU. You make no comment at all about the quality of these two people's work. Why is that?

Extra hours in exceptional times yes, on a regular basis no. You need to organise your team's workload more efficiently.

It doesn't matter why the person leaves dead on 5.

Chilcare, being a Carer, football, gym, going to a 2 nd job, home for a long soakin the bath. After 5 it is none of yours or anyone else's business.

YABU and I believe you are my DH's boss. I work as a manager, in a highly pressured job. I work 9-5 weekdays only. The rest of my time is for myself and my family. Bizarrely I get more done and have had more promotions than my inefficient colleagues who work 10+ hour days. If we have an important job to do I will ensure it gets done but otherwise no chance. Life is too short!

A thought OP, as you are on MN before 5 on a Monday I assume you don't count that as working?

That was your first post on MN Teetertotter.
Did you mean to be so controversial

YABU but maybe you'd be quite happy to see the back of them and the ones who you do think pull their weight when the economy turns around or they find bosses who are resonable?

Working unpaid overtime contributed to my current depression. I have started back at work after 3 months signed off to the dissese...

Op do you use childcare? Do you expect them to work for free if you are an hour late?

Just in case you didn't get it from everyone else, yabu

I am a manager of 15 staff, most on mgmt band, i earn 45k, and i am out of the door when the kids need picking up.

I work hard whilst i am there and if something urgent arises i sometimes will do more, but not regularly.

As a manager, if my staff were working over expected hours i would question how well i am doing in my job

What is it that is too much to be done?
Are we prioritising correctly?
Are people working efficiently during their hours?

You do not get the best from people by expecting them to work long hours. EVERYOnE is entitled to a work life balance and not getting this will result in extra stress, bitterness and sickness.

Yabvvvu. I have this argument all the time at work. The more you do on top of your contract the more will be expected - so people doing over and above FOR FREE devalue the work done by others. The more you do FOR FREE the less people will be employed - if people in a team need to work overtime FOR FREE then the company should be employing another, additional member of staff.

I don't really think it is fair to expect them to do overtime for nothing. If you can't pay them overtime can you offer flexi time or TOIL? Atleast then they can take the time back when it is quieter.

As a Lone Parent with childcare to pick up from, and relying on public transport, I had no choice but to leave on the dot of 5pm. If I was even 5 minutes late to the Nursery, I had to pay for that whole hour. And I then missed my next bus to the after-school club, meaning that I ALSO had to pay for an extra hour for both of the children there.

So working just 5 minutes over 5pm would result in me having to pay for an extra 3 HOURS of childcare. There was and is just no WAY I will do that.

I make it plain at interview stage that unfortunately, due to being a Lone Parent, I am unable to be flexible with my hours. If I am offered the job, I expect the employer to have fully understood that this will mean I am not available to work past 5pm, and that I am unavailable to work weekends.

And if they want me to arrange it in advance, I may be able to do so, for a one off, if given two weeks notice to find alternative childcare, but I would expect to be paid AT LEAST my usual rate for those hours, if not time and a half/double time.

Sounds to me you need to work a bit harder to manage your resources or increase your head count. Maybe you need to do some more overtime yourself OP to sort out your issues. It's your problem if you can't cover the work not your team. That's what you're getting paid a managerial wage for.

Just out of interest, what do you expect the woman with 2 kids to do when you expect overtime? I used to do stuff in the evenings fairly regularly, but I certainly wouldn't have been late picking up my kids for anything. They come first and foremost, as they should. I have done my share of late nights in the office and covered for those with children too. I have never begrudged it.