AIBU to expect my staff to work overtime or more than just 9-5

[TeeterTotter]

I manage a large team of 20 staff and I have two members of my team who refuse to do anything beyond the core hours in their contract. In at a set time, out the door right on the dot like clockwork.

If these staff members were junior I wouldn't expect more of them but they are both on a managerial salary of £41-£44k per year --I think at this level there is a general expectation that you're generally more engaged and committed and that you'll work at home or stay late when needed. I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. In a perfect world no one would have extra work or overtime, but that's just not the way things are in 2012!

One of the staff members is a mom to 2 kids and she says it is impossible for her to stay late (due to childcare commitments) or to do work on weekends (she's too busy with the kids); the other is a single guy who has no appetite to do more than he's contracted to do.

I find this situation very irksome, especially because I have two kids but do a lot of late nights and work from home, which I think is expected at my level.

DP thinks I need to stop imposing my protestant work ethic on everyone I work with, but I feel these staff members aren't pulling their weight. I'm not a slavedriver but I expect more. Are I reasonable or are my views skewed? I would really welcome the opinion of others.

I work to rule on a day to day basis. I made it absolutely clear that i have childcare commitments when I took on the top which is a senior management role and that if they were looking for someone to show their face for the sake Of it I wasn't the person for the job. However, so long as I know IN ADVANCE I will be flexible. This includes things like clearing my diary for a week to attend a conference a few times a year, taking a conference call on my day off or finishing something at home if there is a pressing deadline. What I will not do is hang around the office just because it looks good. I never have, never will and have never been held back because of it.

Lebfg - I think you're right about the flexible thing. If our staff ask for the odd afternoon off to go to the dentist for a child or have to run up to pick an ill kid up from school it's not a problem. Thing is - its partly not a problem because the team rally round to finish the work. As its a small business I think in times of crisis the staff understand much more literally that if we dont make money, they don't have a job so everyone does rally round.

I wouldn't say farmers have a liberal attitude to working hours btw - they just don't understand the concept - they mix up waking and working hours!!

MY ILs are farmers. They live to work, it is their life and they cannot understand why anyone would not feel the same way. They moan and whinge, but they wouldn't have it any other way and they do quite nicely out of it too...

I agree with woozely further up the thread

I have very recently, in the past few days, given in mynotice because I am expected to move the earth and agree to anything and everything with very little notice and I just cannot do it anymore. therefore my job is now available to someone who can do that, but lets not pretend it isn't exploiting people and creating an environment in which morale is at an all time low and production is at low because of lack of motivation

I can see where you are coming from but i think YABU. particularly with respect to staying late. If people have childcare comittments then they have to leave at a set time. Children spend long hours in childcare as it is.

On the other hand, I regularly work evening and weekend for free, and if you allow/let them work from home to catch up I dont think that is as unreasonable.

at our work if we are ill twice for two days within a 6 month period we face a disciplinary. i find that impossible when i have three children and no family nearby to help, one of my children is severely disabled but I think even under normal circumstances that's difficult

I don't earn enough money to employ a nurse from eastern europe (as has been suggested before )

Yabu - It's about quality of output not quantity of hours. Maybe some people are more efficient than you are? We're all different...

OP, I get what you are saying but leaving on the dot to pick up children is not being a jobsworth or unreasonably inflexible. Someone in that position cannot be landed with work at short notice or at the last minute.

It may be that if that particular employee has picked up on your attitude to this, she isn't confident that her commitments to her children are going to be understood or respected if she accepts flexibility, so has taken an extreme work to rule stance.

I do agree with posters who say there has to be flexibility both ways. Would that person offer more effort if asked in good time to e.g. come in early and offered time off in lieu?

My sister works in your sector and quite frankly had the piss taken out of her by her previous employers who never truly appreciated her effort. They even stopped the perk of a taxi home if you worked anti-social hours leaving her paying for her own taxi home at midnight. She left, of course. So did all the other good people.

At some level there has to be that feeling of responsibility. Yes, I agree. But that includes management accepting a responsibility to treat people fairly.

It may be that the people on 20k are no more keen on overtime but are more junior, and less secure and confident that the older hands on 40+k, so daren't refuse.

YABU. There may be an expectation but there is no obligation. I worked all hours in my twenties when I had no other responsibilities, because, well, I had no other responsibilities. You cannot condemn someone for not working more than their contractual hours - only if they are not doing the work that is required in the time stated to a decent standard.

YANBU

If everyone pulled their weight and did overtime, it would mean less overtime all round.

Some people are bloody adamant they won't do it though, and it effects all of us.

And then these people only complain when we get little rewards like pizza for our dinner.

YABVU

People like you baffle me. If yu want to work for nothing, off you go but why do you expect other people to be martyrs just because you are?

Also, you talk as if these people work for you, they don't, they work for a company and so do you. It's not your company, all this sacrifice and martyerdom is pointless, it doesn't make you a better person morally. It's just more money in the bosses pockets.

I've seen loads of people with your attitude over the years ending up very bitter when they realise all their extra work and sacrifices were a waste. The company will lap it up but at the end of the day, you're just a number. An employee.

Go home on time and be with your kids. You won't get any thanks for selling your soul to the company.

Surely this all depends on what industry you are in, what you do and what your seniority is?

If you work in a global industry, I'm afraid it's often inevitable that you will be asked to participate in international conference calls which happen out-of-hours (and may well be asked to travel). Time zones are responsible. If you insist on only taking calls 9-5 UK time you are forcing some poor person in Australia or the US to be even more inconvenienced than you might be.

If you work in - say - Credit and Collections in a UK firm, there's probably no point working late because the people you need to call won't be there to take your call.

At some level of seniority you get paid (handsomely unless you're a mug) to deliver a result rather than by the hour. Then you just do what it takes.

You can argue the detail of the examples in this post (it's hurried) but surely the gist is right?

If you wanteds them to work overtime, then maybe you ought to have made provision for that in their contracts. They work their contracted hours, and then get on with the rest of their lives. YADBU. They are doing the job you pay them for.

Scarlet, I totally agree.

The OP's attitude is more in line with the days when people worked for the same company for decades, and employers did a lot more for their workers. That two-way relationship has completely broken down now.

The people I've known who have handled redundancy the worst are people like the OP, who see work as a moral issue, who put a lot of weight on commitment and loyalty, etc and so on. They are always the most floored when that same company sacks them without a care.

YABU. I've actually been asked to stay later by certain bosses and they've always ended up taking the total piss.

No overtime provision, no working.

The thing about mini crises is that they tend to happen far more frequently in poorly-run companies.

I loved StillSquiffy's post.

Well said squiffy... I hope the OP reads your post and takes it on board, but some how I don't think she will because she didn't like that people disagree with her.

The people I've known who have handled redundancy the worst are people like the OP, who see work as a moral issue, who put a lot of weight on commitment and loyalty, etc and so on. They are always the most floored when that same company sacks them without a care

I've seen that plenty of times too. Two particular cases stand out. One female manager I know who whipped everyone and expected full muggery from them, just because that was what she did. Gave other women in particular a hard time, but then when she fell pregnant, was shocked and horrified when HR quibbled with her wanting to work shorter hours. She complained BITTERLY about 'after everything she had done for them' -it was comical, what the fuck did she expect?

Another who spent 20 years going on unpaid training weekends, working late, studying and upskilling like mad but then discovered an internal memo about herself saying she would never go anywhere because as a working Mother she wouldn't fit in with the old boys. (obviously in less explicit language) She was shocked and disappointed but she can't get back all those lost weekends and evenings.

The way I see it when I'm working for a company is it's a business transaction. I'm working to get the most money for the least amount of hours I can. I'm looking for the best deal for me the same way a Business looks for the best deal for them. It's just Business, not charity. I've seen so many naive idiots expolited over the years thinking they are going to be the next big thing, literally selling their souls, thinking they are 'in with management' who are patting them on the head while snickering up their sleeves at what suckers they are. Promotion time comes and suprise, suprise these people are passed over. Why? Because they've painted themselves into a corner, working for nothing. There is truth in the cliche you shouldn't make yourself too indispensable. A company isn't going to refuse free labour. And the more you do it the less appreciated it is. Just look at the OP and her likes, instead of being grateful for free OT from staff they start to expect it.

scarletforya, fair enough.

Have you ever had a job you've enjoyed? Interesting work, good atmosphere etc? You just sound very bitter.

The evidence on people at the top suggests that those without DC or who have a stay at home partner are more likely to get to middle and senior management, maybe because they can "do what it takes" (work extra hours) in the way described. Obviously, more of the latter are men.

Exactly dozer scroll down for squiffy's post.

Thanks arthur.

Trouble is, the argument that all those who work long hours are inefficient, not as good as those who work 9-5 etc, is simplistic. I have lots of colleagues who are good at their job, efficient etc, AND work long hours. As a result they get more/better work done than I and other part-timers and even full-time 9-5ers do. And they take up opportunities (eg evening networking or learning, extra projects) and get more contact with senior people (eg because they too work late). They become the "go to" people.

(Agree with squiffy completely)

Dozer I wasnt saying in my post that they are all inefficient, but there are alot that are. Walking around the office, talking about all the work they do, without actually doing any of it. Then staying til 9pm to catch up on what they could have done during the day. I have worked with several of these, including the one I mentioned above who was given a lower paid, lower reponsibility job because all management could see was a man who couldnt do the same work in the same time as everyone else.