AIBU to expect my staff to work overtime or more than just 9-5

[TeeterTotter]

I manage a large team of 20 staff and I have two members of my team who refuse to do anything beyond the core hours in their contract. In at a set time, out the door right on the dot like clockwork.

If these staff members were junior I wouldn't expect more of them but they are both on a managerial salary of £41-£44k per year --I think at this level there is a general expectation that you're generally more engaged and committed and that you'll work at home or stay late when needed. I also feel times have changed and in these dicey financial times people are giving more to their jobs than ever. In a perfect world no one would have extra work or overtime, but that's just not the way things are in 2012!

One of the staff members is a mom to 2 kids and she says it is impossible for her to stay late (due to childcare commitments) or to do work on weekends (she's too busy with the kids); the other is a single guy who has no appetite to do more than he's contracted to do.

I find this situation very irksome, especially because I have two kids but do a lot of late nights and work from home, which I think is expected at my level.

DP thinks I need to stop imposing my protestant work ethic on everyone I work with, but I feel these staff members aren't pulling their weight. I'm not a slavedriver but I expect more. Are I reasonable or are my views skewed? I would really welcome the opinion of others.

Tee hee! Nice one Bogeyface...

Totally agree with you on companies with shitty attitude = high staff turnover.

As a minimum I would reflect their attitude in their perf reviews and pay awards and give the rewards to people who are going over and above. I would also be inflexible about going early for Dr etc!

And you think that I shouldnt be in a position of authority?! That is fucking appalling!

yes i would hate to work for you, seriously you are a manager. Manage your team.

i am not even a manager, I am a domestic.

My boss is fantastic, she bends over backward to help all her staff and it make us all feel like a team.

YANBU. I think at that salary you should be thinking I am employed to do a role and will stay until the work necessary is done. Of course there is a limit to what you can expect but always to leave at 5 on the dot!

But if they are employed 9 - 5 (not common really) and no reason for them to do differently then they won't!

I thought it was a well known fact that "shit rolls down hill" and it's usually the lowest paid who get stuck staying late - was definitely the case in my previous job where the seniors left on the dot and us underlings were stuck working late. I think it's almost touching you think it should be any other way.

The other posters who asked if you provide the means to work at home had a point though - then people can meet family committments and do work later if they have to.

This culture of staying late just to show "commitment" really irritates.

I'm lucky to have a flexible employer who allows part time work and working from home and also allows me to get in an hour early and leave an hour early to pick up DS. If I have an appointment, I go to it, no questions asked. In return, when the chips are down, I put the time in that's needed to do the job. That might mean a late meeting once a month. A trip overnight or a couple of hours at the evening or weekend once a quarter.

The rest of the time I am out the door on the dot. And I take a full hour lunch break.

I'm not looking to "rise" as I have a good salary (40+) and a promotion would just mean longer hours which I'd prefer to give to my family.

Nothing psses me off more than the assumption that you're not working hard if you don't stay late or work at weekends for no pay. It is* daylight robbery.

To answer your question OP - yes, your views are skewed. In order to get, you have to give. Capiche?

Exactly what dorset said!

I am a manager, at interview and when signing contracts I told them I would be leaving at 5 come hell or highwater. They chose to hire me on those terms. I start at 730am and often don't eat lunch because I am busy. But I am out the door at 5pm, no matter what.

$1 a minute for the first ten minutes and then $10 per minute after that - that is what my daycare charges for late pickup.

If they want weekends they can pay for it. We (my employer and I signed a contract). I read and negotiate and honour any contract I sign, I expect the same.

Our German au pair thinks we are crazy for working so hard. I stick to my 35 hours as much as possible but DH works in a culture where it is "bums on seats" that matter. He spends hours emailing me and does all our home admin at work as nobody cares what he gets done in those hours.

I am employed to do a job. I have a team and between us we do the job. On a day when we aren't busy I ensure they leave as early as possible. On the days we are busy we work a bit later. I am the only one with childcare issues but am happy to catch up if I need to later. That said it is very rare.

When do you see your children? I get about an hour with my daughter before bed if I am lucky. And I leave at 5 most nights.

I could do with some advice on this. I work in a team of mostly males, mostly single with no commitments, in a technology firm in midlands.

Our boss seems to spend every waking hour sending emails to us, often strings of one sentence question which could be at any time evenings or weekends. We all have work phones with email. He has a family but just emails whenever he thinks of something. I can't work like that, I have to switch off at weekends. I have stupidly perhaps tried to do the right thing and occasionally respond to emails outside of office hours, admittedly sometimes just to try to make a good impression, but other times because I've been busy and wanted to catch up in own time and of course on replying to an earlier email I've found myself in an email exchange with him lasting for ages.

I now realise this was wrong, I probably should've been stronger about this from day 1, and if anything I've made a rod for my own back and I'm now trying really hard to backtrack.

Don't mind at all on odd occasions but this isn't really urgent stuff, not at all. He doesn't seem to have an off switch when it come to work and expects the same from others.

He's actually really supportive generally but I just wish I knew how to handle this expectation. Reading this thread has been very useful, any advice much appreciated altho I know i've hijacked.

Roasted, just because he is emailing you at all times of the day and night doesn't mean he is expecting an answer immediately. Answer him when you are processing your Inbox.

It's called a Crackberry for a reason, y'know!

I have seen it from both sides working at that level. When I had no kids, I worked late, and part of it was being 'seen' to be in the office late. . That was the culture. However, I could also take time out to have a chat to people at work Once I had kids, I had my head down all the time, I did not go on the internet or facebook or chat chat chat. It drove me mad with the amount of chat that went on because I just needed to get my head down. Just because people aren't doing the long hours, does not mean they are not working very hard when they are at work, they just become more effective.

I agree cerealqueen. Before DD was born I used to work hard and play hard. I also used to find a lot more time to chat with workmates. Now I only work 2 days a week, and if I don't need to go out at lunchtime I tend to work through my lunch hour as well. The company gets far more pro rata out of me now than they did 15 years ago.

YANBU.

I'd be managing them out if they point-blank refuse to work past 5pm under any circumstances.

I'm a director in a multi-national (with a team spanning most of EMEA) and I'm very flexible with regard to my people and their working hours. I do however expect them to step up to the plate when it's needed.

And yes, managers are leaders. It's bollocks to say that the MD and CEO are leaders while other managers aren't.

What about the position of team leader? That's a pretty junior position but it's still about providing leadership. The clue is in the job title, to paraphrase Bogeyface.

I'd also like to add that anyone who says managers are paid to manage rather than lead are highly likely to be utterly shit at their job. There's nothing like 'managing' people to bring out the worst performance.

Lead people, don't manage or direct them unless things are already going wrong.

You sound lovely...

Roasted - stick an out of office on saying you'll get back to anyone when you check your emails on Monday.

This is why I'm going back to self-employed next month.

If I'm going to put in the hours, fine, but I'm not going to do it so some schmuck can go slag me off online about what a slacker I am.

Roasted I've worked for people like that and it can be very difficult to manage but unless there was something going on that meant I needed to check my emails I learnt that I had to switch off my well named crackberry over the weekend and put it away in the evenings for my own sanity. Your boss probably uses his emails to you to let you know things as they occur to him (maybe he can't switch off, maybe he thinks if he doesn't send the email then he'll forget his point) it doesn't mean you need to read them and reply as they are sent.
Often I'd check my emails on the Sunday night but I was very choosy over which ones I replied to before Monday morning.

OP I think you need to accept people have different perceptions of the balance between life and work. Especially if childcare requirements mean one of your staff needs to leave on time. Arguably, if need be, the mum could finish off necessary work that evening post-evening but that may not suit her life at present. This isn't to say that this will always be her attitude. As her children grow she may have more time to devote to her career. In the meantime if she completes the work she is given then whilst she may not progress speedily I don't think you can demand more. I think the other staff member may be more of a jobsworth but again that's his call and will likely impact his career progression. If he accepts this then that's how it is.

What is the point of contracted hours if the company expects to be able to ignore the contract.

I love my work, really I do, but it isn't my life. I do it so I get paid. From 7:30am to 5:00pm I am all theirs as long as they put the money in the bank.

TBH, I am a friggen bargain at the moment, I am bloody good at what I do and am doing it for less than usual because I wanted shorter hours.

I found a company that realised this and we are all happy.

Thanks for replying mrsconfused, I know you're right but the way I read them makes me think he does expect an answer quickly, maybe not immediately but the same day (even if sat or sun). The trouble is the rest of the team seem to oblige him and follow his work ethic to a smaller extent. I really need to stop feeling guilty about this but I do struggle with it. Its even causing trouble with dh as he can't understand how much this is affecting me.

Don't read them then roastednut.

I am contracted for 2 days a week. I do log on for 30 minutes on the other days at about 8:00am. I have a look, I fire off any quick emails need an immediate response or redirection and I then I log off and forget about it.

They are not paying me to stress on my time off, if they want more hours then can pay for them. Or not if I can't do them.

OP, perhaps you should have given a little more detail in your first post but I understand the gist of what you're trying to get across, i.e. working hard, demonstrating commitment to the organisation you're working for, mucking in with your colleagues, etc. especially when those in jobs are lucky to have them at the mo (us included!). On the whole, you are definitely NBU. However, if someone has to leave to meet childcare commitments, then they have to go. Nevertless, there is nothing stopping them working for an hour in the evening when the kids are in bed or taking a call on the train going home, etc.

I don't think you deserve the flaming you've received. Attitude is everything. I don't promote people who don't show willing. People who don't show willing perhaps don't have expectations to be promoted. Some of us have careers. Some of us have jobs. Neither is right nor wrong; just different. Shame not everyone else can see that too.

'I have seen it from both sides working at that level. When I had no kids, I worked late, and part of it was being 'seen' to be in the office late. . That was the culture.'

Me, too. For 14 years, both here and in the US.

I go to work to work, not take breaks or go on Facebook or shopping or whatever.

I got the work of two people done in my contracted hours for putting my head down and working and yet I was some kind of slacker for leaving (stayed when it was necessary)?

I've worked in the US. I was born and bred there and worked there at high levels for over a decade.

Anyone who holds up their 'work ethic'? LOL. With an attitude like the OP's, I'd venture a guess most if not all of those she supervises can't even print what they really feel about her.

My work ethic was bred into me if it isn't in my blood itself.

If the OP were a good leader, well, I've met a fair few, she wouldn't even need to post such an OP. She'd be looking at herself first.

A good leader is someone who has what it takes to make people go out of their way for her.

That's obviously not the case.

Making slaves out of people or shocking them to jump when you say how high, it doesn't work unless you engender them to you. 'Hate is more lasting than dislike.'

And I'd hate to work for someone who's too fool to recognise my efficiency and work in favour of face time. I'd find them stupid, for starters.

My working hours are 9-5:30. I (& most other staff) sit in the tea room until 8:59am, and down tools and walk out at bang on 5:30. We used to start early and stay late if needed, but since our manager has implemented certain changes that have made our lives far more difficult we no longer care. In addition, we have all been told many times that they will not promote internally, we get no bonuses anyway, and they're ridiculously inflexible when it comes to doctor's or hospital appointments, and annual leave. (I.E. they wouldn't let someone have the afternoon off to go to a funeral - he had to use his lunch break then come back straight away and make up the rest of the hours.)

So I now have the attitude that I just need to go to work in order to get paid. As do the majority of people I work with. Yes, morale is ridiculously low and our sickness record is ridiculously high.

You know what pisses me off? People who fart around talking about how busy they are, these are often the people who also work late to show willing.

If they shut the fuck up and got on with it, maybe they could also leave at 5pm.