if you voted for the Tories, you should feel personally responsible when you see homeless people on the streets ...

[aufaniae]

...once their policies start to bite.

They want to removing housing benefit for under 25s, many of whom have children. Just one of their policies which will drive people into homelessness.

I thought this was meant to be a civilised country. If the safety net is removed, many people including children will fall through it, some of them ending up on the streets.

How can anyone support that?

I agree re IVF. Shouldn't be on the NHS IMO

Do people really believe that because education is free that everyone has equal opportunities in life?

Nah, it was the high prolactin level 'what did it. . . ' - That was undiagnosed for several years. I do take pretty good care of myself.

Whilst I have every sympathy for you, it may have been helpful to have taken a different approach and decided not to play Russian roulette with nature in pursuit of wealth.
But I don't need sympathy, it all has worked out peachy and once they discovered said prolactin level I conceived in three months, twice, once at (shock horror) 34, and then again (faint) at 36.

But as I have said to the point of tedium, wealth was not the point here. Meeting a decent bloke, which I did at 29, being married, having my own home (I bought my first flat at 27) etc, all on which to build a happy, stable family, which is what, thank God, I have, was the aim of the game.

If I had drifted from leaving school with no real game plan, and bred with the first spotty herbert to buy me half a lager, then while I may have had lots more children, they would have had a really rubbish life. What's not to get?

That's great theroseofwai, I am really pleased for you, I know some women are not so lucky. I have cysts on ovaries but no syndrome of symptoms. So similar situation here but at 28 decided to step off career ladder and take my chances. Thing is some women do not have the advantages of good sense, good education, support and role models, educational opportunity. Many generations of people are locked into a cycle of poverty. I agree that welfare can not be afforded and I agree that taxes to the middle earners are too high. However we as the middle, can not afford to impoverish the poor even further, because it is us that will ultimately suffer too. History shows us this.

This thread looks like it will be full soon, so I'm reflecting a little before it closes ...

My aim in starting this thread was to make people aware of the likely effects of the policies being proposed at the moment (i.e. homelessness of children) and to find out if Tories really are comfortable with children being made homeless.

I'm generally pleased with what I've learnt. It seems no one is comfortable with children on the streets. Even the most heartless posters on this thread (who have suggested that all poor / young people have abortions) are not comfortable with this idea, but have dealt with it by denying it will happen. (Sadly all the evidence says it will).

Denial has been popular. Many others - even die hard Tories - refuse to accept that this policy will affect families once the detail is revealed. (Sadly, it does seems that the plan such as it is at the moment, is intended to affect families, but maybe if enough people are outraged we can change that). It is encouraging though that even many Tories obviously find the idea unpalatable.

I've been disappointed (but not terribly surprised) that those supporting the government have used prejudice, hyperbole and stereotypes to support their ideas. They don't seem too concerned with actual evidence. I think the opposition need to get good at painting pictures (but ones actually based on an accurate reflection of the truth) to counteract the prejudice as many people seem unconcerned by actual facts or data.

And sadly - I think many people have swallowed the bullshit! The Tories are not concerned with making things fair for us! Their policies are ideological and they are spinning a line rather than being honest about what they're up to (sadly this is what politics seems to be about on all sides these days, no one talks about the big ideas any more. Unless it's marketing speak "the big society" etc). People who are defending the Tories ideas all seem to be concerned with what their benefit-claiming SIL (or whoever) is up to, rather than being aware of economic theory.

I've also learnt I want to hear more from MiniTheMinx, she tried to drag people into talking about the big ideas :) and also that I need to go read up on economics and political history as I'm pretty rusty and I think it'll be useful as we seem to be going straight back to politics based class / protecting the wealthy. Now what did I do with my books on Marx .... ?

But mini at 28 I was single so there would have been no point me stepping off the ladder, and even when I met dh at 29 (two weeks before I was 30 to be exact) you don't (and really shouldn't) go straight to the making babies stage.

So the delay wasn't a choice between wealth and babies, it was, I repeat, putting myself in a sensible position too have my babies.

Great summary auf

aufaniae.

Wow, your really good at reflecting, I used to enjoy this at uni.

Well I'm off now as dd has finished Maths and English and now its music practice time. Then I must prep resources for monday.

Enjoy your weekend all.

therose I pay far more tax and NI than you. Am I more entitled?

No, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!

Thanks newames and morethanpotatoprints!

I'm actually at uni at the moment (as a very mature student!) so getting it drilled into me I guess

Hope you have a lovely weekend too :)

Latecomer to the thread. But YABU.

Do you know what the statistics are for over 25 homelessness at all? My feeling is that its male dominated. I have a bee in my bonnet about this this week, since I've been advertising for a housemate, and have been literally plagued by divorced or seperated men in their forties and fifties being "thrown out" of their girlfriends, quite blatantly looking for some other mug of a woman they can shack up with. So YABU on the basis that there is a trend in this country of letting feckless men away with everything without any criticism, and saying its always someone else's fault. There is generally bugger all reason an adult male cannot ensure he has his housing needs met, excepting disability.

A typically biased summary OP.

It is a shame that we can't discuss this kind of thing without people throwing around insults like lazy tart and brainless bimbo but it's been a very interesting thread.

I'd still be very interested in hearing peoples ideas on solving these issues as opposed to a straight 'cut the benefits' statement.

If you really feel strongly enough to voice that opinion then put some thought into how we can get to that point first maybe.

What an interesting debate!

The countries finances are up the proverbial creek, cuts have to made and agree with the welfare state it is an obscene amount of money to spend, however well intentioned or not it has caused a sense of entitlement and taken away personal responsibility. It is a safety net, which could pay people in need far more if it wasn't used to support lifestyle choices, thousands of people make the decision to stop having children for financial reasons, why should it be different if your in receipt of benefits?

I also agree with closing the taxation loop holes, however this will not solve the problems alone, it is all very well and good referring to creating more employment, here is my magic wand 3,000,000 more jobs created, it isn't going to happen where will these jobs come from who will creat them?

If welfare isn't reduced deeper cuts will need to be made from other front line services, I for one wouldn't want education and healthcare to suffer to protect the welfare state in its current form.

The Gaulish mother goddess has spoken. Ignore her at your peril.

aufaniae

Curious summary. You appear to have written ( and I parahrase ):

"I was right, and good, and nice. Everyone who agreed with me was right, and good, and nice. Everyone who disagreed with me was evil, ignorant or hateful."

It seems to me that 40 pages of posts have taught you absolutely nothing. Don't worry, though. Judging by the number of identical posts started by people like you, who read the Guardian and think that money must grow on trees, you aren't alone.

Although people like me were insulted on this thread, i have found all the different pov very interesting.

Patronising much?

I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at tbh.

That was to flatpackhamster, of course.

aufaniae great summary I think that really sums up where we are.

For anyone interested in knowing what left wing economics is all about I would recommend this davidharvey.org/ which is a brilliant on line course that will take you through Das Kapital. David Harvey is brilliant and really makes the big ideas and complex theories seem like something you intuitively knew all along. (which is good for a feckless tart like myself And rdwolff.com/ although Wolff is American and much of the analysis focuses on the States but it all applies to the UK too and he is very funny!

Two fifths of the total welfare figure is spent on pensions. Just ten percent is spent on housing benefit. I wonder why Conservatives are also keen to keep paying the winter fuel payment as a non means tested benefit?

Interesting report on R4 this morning as well. Can't find anything on the net but some study shows that in terms of NHS spending on conditions related to excess alcohol consumption it is the baby boomers who have bust their livers and now Zap the budget.

So how do we feel about keeping the crumblies at the expense of children, when 1 in 3 children are already living in poverty. Tory policy will surely come back to haunt us in future years.

Actually, I think flatpackhamster's summary was fairly spot on.

aufaniae Fri 12-Oct-12 11:03:04
"I've been disappointed (but not terribly surprised) that those supporting the government have used prejudice, hyperbole and stereotypes to support their ideas. They don't seem too concerned with actual evidence."

Yeah, no need for hyperbole. . .
"if you voted for the Tories, you should feel personally responsible when you see homeless people on the streets ..."

Very compassionate caring about children Mini. However, anyone who refers to older people as "crumblies" is very selective in their compassion.

MiniTheMinx thanks for the links, I will start my homework there! :)

MrsBethel I don't blame you for not reading all my posts, this is a very long thread! But I don't certainly don't stand by my OP, word for word. It was meant to spark debate and it certainly seems to have done that! Earlier, I said:

"I'll confess - I think it's stretching an argument to say that every voter is personally responsible for every action that their party takes while in government.

But I posted as I think people need to be aware that they have voted for a government which plans to make thousands of children homeless, and I wanted to know how comfortable Tory voters really were with that idea.

I was trying to get people to have a think about the effects of Tory policies. I am fed up with hearing the government spout rhetoric about responsibilities when their own policies will be responsible for pushing thousands into poverty and homelessness. I do think they need to take responsibility for this. And voters should be aware of what they're voting for."

aufaniae

MiniTheMinx thanks for the links, I will start my homework there! smile

Yep, that's what you need, Marxist economics. "Spend more, and when you run out of money, keep spending."

But I posted as I think people need to be aware that they have voted for a government which plans to make thousands of children homeless, and I wanted to know how comfortable Tory voters really were with that idea.

Well done you. Aren't you morally superior?

I was trying to get people to have a think about the effects of Tory policies. I am fed up with hearing the government spout rhetoric about responsibilities when their own policies will be responsible for pushing thousands into poverty and homelessness. I do think they need to take responsibility for this. And voters should be aware of what they're voting for."

Why don't you try 'taking responsibility' for the collapse of the British economy due to your lot's inability to stop spending?