To suggest people shouldn't be allowed donor organs unless they're registered organ donors themselves?

[TM08]

I had a conversation with my mum the other night, which has led on to me posting this thread.

She thinks that it might be possible to feel pain after death. She doesn't know what happens to our bodies, but she doesn't believe it's the end of us. For this reason, she wants cremated instead of buried, as she wouldn't want to be slowly eaten by worms for years after dying. Lovely.

Because of the pain after death thing, she doesn't want to be an organ donor. I asked "would you be happy to accept an organ if you needed one tomorrow?" and she said yes.

It just got me thinking how unfair this system is. People like my mum can get organs, but aren't willing to donate their own.

AIBU to think that if you are willing to accept an organ, you should be a registered organ donor yourself?

Sorry Outraged, a couple of people have answered - someone said that if they were doing some sort of points system, the donation of blood/marrow should count for something and there was another answer further up (can't face re-reading the whole thread).

Personally I believe that if you are so unsure of the rightness of donating that you would opt out, you should also be unsure of the rightness of accepting donations, and should turn them down, so the issue of whether you would be willing to donat blood or organs is irrelevant.

In the even that someone is willing to accept but not donate an organ, I don't believe that donations of blood/marrow would have any relevance either. It would be like saying "I can justify accepting an organ because I give lots of money to charity".

Donating blood and even marrow is a very different thing than being willing to donate organs after death. The former is a good thing to do, the latter is on a whole other (higher) level.

Does that answer your question? If it does, can you answer mine please. What is it that makes it ok to allow someone else to donate after death but would stop you doing so? I'm genuinely interested, I'm not going to yell at you or call you names, I'm just curious

That was a cross-post - if that is the way you and your dh feel, then it wouldn't really be fair of you to allow someone else to do it for you. Wouldn't you feel worried about what would happen to them?

A wonderful adorable little boy passed away suddenly last month aged 22 months. It was a huge shock but due to how sudden and unexpected his death was his organs were able to give another child a chance of life, someone who very easily could have gone the same way.
A 12 year old girl passed away a couple of weeks ago whilst waiting for a transplant. Even though her family knew it was a possibility their heartbreak and grief was horrendous.
Two sides to organ donation here but I think anyone who can donate owes it to any human being whos only hope of life is a transplant

Outraged, you either agree with organ donation or you don't. You seem to want it both ways. To have the option available to you if you need an organ but unwilling to be a donor yourself.

I haven't read all the replies but I have opted on my donor card to donate everything.

If in the most horrendous incident that I was to die suddenly and some or all of my organs were viable I really don't see the point in them rotting in the ground with me when they could have saved countless lives.

I hope my family would take comfort in the fact that my life ending wasn't meaningless and that even in death I helped people.

I'm sorry but I do think it is selfish not to want to donate. You'll be dead! Do you want all your money buried with you too?

If your mum / husband / son / daughter etc was dying in hospital needing a heart and a healthy but unfortunately brain dead patient came into A&E after being in a car accident for example - a long shot of course but I'm just saying. Would you not be wishing they were a donor? Every day on average 3 people die whilst waiting on the organ registry.

What makes donating organs after death a higher other level than donating blood and bone marrow? Surely, if anything, a donation after death means less, because if you believe that your body is just an empty shell then you aren't really giving anything, whereas if you give during your life you have to be willing to suffer, even in a small way.

What makes it ok to allow someone else to donate after death but would stop you doing so?

Do you mean why do I think it's ok for someone who doesn't want to donate to receive? If so, I'm not sure that it is ok. But I think something more fundamental to morality than receiving when you won't donate, is that we cannot make moral judgments on who has more right to life, or who is more deserving of death. I think expecting society to make that sort of choice is a far worse thing than someone taking an organ that they would feel uncomfortable about giving.

Wouldn't you feel worried about what would happen to them?

Yes, probably.

You seem to want it both ways. To have the option available to you if you need an organ but unwilling to be a donor yourself.

No, I don't. I don't want anything out of this. I'm just discussing it. And being honest about how I feel.

If your husband feels hurt and traumatised at the prospect, then I don't think you should feel forced into anything. But that's not what we've been debating, in general.

Most people who have religious faith believe that brain death is the point at which the soul leaves the body - that's why most people are ok about turning off life support when that stage comes (after a pause to get used to the idea and say their goodbyes). And most people without a religious faith would also agree that brain death is the point at which the person is irretrievably "gone".

I guess I'm not able to imagine a world-view where things you are vague about are that important. But then I've never been able to get my head round why so many people seem to manage to half-believe in Feng Shui and rabbits feet and crystals and other things, often all a tthe same time. If it's important enough to bother you, I'd have though it was important enough to really dig into and decide what you believe. But maybe that's just me.

If your husband feels hurt and traumatised at the prospect, then I don't think you should feel forced into anything. But that's not what we've been debating, in general.

No, not specifically, but we are talking about people who don't want to donate, and if you're going to do that, it makes sense to me to look at the various reasons why they might feel that way.

Talking about these things seems to me to be the best way to increase the number of donors, especially as there are so many people who aren't on the donor register.

Outraged you said upthread that you would happily receive but are unwilling to give and that is your opinion end of (or words to that effect).

If you are changing that view then great but don't try to back-track and deny saying it.

Do you mind telling me what page my post you are referring to is on please?

I don't hink you quite said that but
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Wed 10-Oct-12 09:13:58
... I don't know if I'd accept an organ. I know the thought of it now feels uncomfortable, but I think that if I was in the position of needing an organ then the desire to stay alive would outweigh anything else.

I don't actually agree with organ donation.

However, if me or any of my family needed an organ donation to save their life, I doubt I'd reject it. (Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing).

And on that basis, I am on the organ donor register (through DVLA) because I don't think I should take that which I would be unprepared to give!

OMC, if that's what PinkFloyd is referring to, then that is nothing like being happy to receive and that is my opinion end of

Nor is it me trying to back track and deny anything.

But maybe she is talking about something else I said that I don't remember.

Outraged you said:

"I don't want to donate organs, and that's not for other people to be able to understand or not. I don't have to justify it and I don't give a shit whether others understand or not, my body, my choice. I donate blood and I'm on the bone marrow register. Is that enough or would I be denied an organ if I needed one? "

So the implication is that you are not prepared to donate organs but feel you shouldn't be denied one if you need one.

That's what I struggle to understand - why you feel so strongly that donation is wrong for you, but would still allow someone else to donate to you.

I think some people might be mixing you up with this post:

missingmumxox Mon 08-Oct-12 23:13:50

I won't donate after death and I won't elaborate why, but I would accept, I would be a live donor if I could, even if it was someone I didn't know, I have my reasons and they are them and that is the end of it, DH was told me he wants to donate if he can, I don't want to, but I will respect his wishes if he has a death that makes him eligible, I pray it is never necessary.

She was the one who said "I won't donate, but would accept, end of" effectively.

No I wouldn't like to tell you what page it was on as I don't use pages.

Basically what OMC quoted and this

^OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Tue 09-Oct-12 11:43:01
I don't want to donate organs, and that's not for other people to be able to understand or not. I don't have to justify it and I don't give a shit whether others understand or not, my body, my choice.^

I do think relatives still need to be able to override the person's wishes, even with an opt-out system - if someone's next-of-kin would be very upset and traumatised by the deceased's organs being used, then I can't imagine most HCPs being comfortable with using them as a donor,

I would imagine most HCPs would prefer to respect the wishes of the deceased, surely? There's something very morally wrong IMO in relatives being able to override their family member's wishes in this way.

FolkGhoul I'm intrigued - why do you "not agree" with organ donation?

*"She thinks that it might be possible to feel pain after death."

So she's against her organs being taken from her once she dies incase it hurts but is fine with being set on fire?*

It does seem rather strange ...

I don't think many HCPs would go against what grieving relatives want. The relatives are the ones who are there on the spot, trying to deal with a dreadful loss (and usually a sudden loss of a relatively young person, for organ donation to be an option). Most caring people are not going to say "Well, tough if you don't like it".

And I don't think the health profession generally would want the negative publicity that could very easily be generated by that sort of scenario.

So whatever the morality, I think the practicalities are that relatives would always have to be given the right to refuse.

PinkFloyd, fair enough and thank you for letting me know what you are referring to. That says nothing about my being 'happy' to receive, and not do I deny saying it. I am not back tracking, I stand by it.

I don't think anyone has a right to decide whether my life is more worthy than someone else's based on the fact that I am uncomfortable with what would happen if I were to donate, despite the fact that I donate from my body elsewhere, and the fact that I am actually trying to discuss it and find the thing that will help me to feel differently.

I don't think you can or should over-ride relatives wishes, I really don't. You can try to persuade them gently, tell them what the dead person's wishes were, you can possibly delay things a bit, but the thoughts of forcing grieving relatives to do anything that would upset them further is horrible.

I don't want to donate organs, and that's not for other people to be able to understand or not. I don't have to justify it and I don't give a shit whether others understand or not, my body, my choice.

Of course it is for people other people to understand or not. The issue affects people's lives. Closing down debate saying "I don't have to justify it" makes others think you haven't thought it through or don't have a sensible reason.

*Sorry to take the thread back a few pages, but in response to the response that was given to me, no, it isn't for other people to understand what happens to my body. It doesn't matter if i have thought it through, I don't have to have a sensible reason.

After the recent abortion threads where the majority of MN appears to be pro choice, why doesn't that respect for choice transfer across into this debate? Why is a persons right to choice about their own body so important when it comes to unwanted pregnancy, but not when it comes to organ donation.*

Sorry only just catching up with the thread ... Obviously the two issues are completely different but they can certainly be compared. Abortion has to be thought about, discussed and justified just as organ donation does.

When I say of course it is for other people to understand, I'm not sure why you are not prepared to engage in debate about your reasons for not wanting to donate your organs. It's obviously important for researchers and the medical profession to understand people's motivations and feelings about the issue. I'm quite happy to discuss my reasons for being pro-choice if asked - mainly they are based around embryos/early foetuses not being sentient and the disgust I feel at a woman being forced to undergo a potentially life threatening condition, the rights of a grown adult trumping those of undeveloped human etc.

If you don't have a sensible reason, how can you expect to be taken seriously?

And I don't think the health profession generally would want the negative publicity that could very easily be generated by that sort of scenario.

Why would that situation cause negative publicity anymore than overriding a deceased person's wishes?? I know which I find more morally repugnant.