to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

[StickMeToTheMan]

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

Loved the links - the Shriners are a sort of add on thing that freemasons can join if they want to - all members are freemasons but not all freemasons are members - they focus a lot on kids charities and are mainly based in the USA.

Good heavens.

How senior a mason do you have to be?

I'm as senior as you get in Blue Masonry.
I'm also a Mark mason and member of Royal Arch. As a MM, you can go and visit any Lodge, including those where all the go. I've sat next to Grand Lodge Officers, Provincial Grand Masters... the idea these are some sort of sub-culture is asinine.

amillionyears
You dont need to reply again. I will not be be changing my mind on this.

You surprise me .

LineRunner
No-one has tackled the conflict of interest issue.

How do you mean, tackled it. I said a Mason should follow the interests of Law, Family Business. You woffle on about conflict of interest, show some. "Oooh, he's a Mason" is no more a conflict of interest, than "Oooh, they go to the same church", "ooH they got to the same golf club".

That's lovely, but what about the million pound planning applications? which ones...

I asked this quite a way up the thread, and it remains unanswered as to why these masons wouldn't want to declare their innocent interest. if every other councillor discloses every other interest they have, including religion - you could only do that by law; in which case? The Freemasons would comply.

SarahStratton
A month ago, I'd have said very differently, but with everything that is coming out now about JS, Jersey, etc,
What coming out - cite something other than rumour?

I am firmly with LineRunner. Oh dear...

auntmargaret
Well done to all those Masons who pretend its just a "little club" and their little women believe it. It's corrupt and insidious

Drivel - show some evidence.

and there is a handshake.

There is.

They seek to obtain advantage for themselves and their families bases not on merit, but on membership

Nope.
and its more widespread than you think.

More widespread than you think perhaps...

The charity aspect is a smokescreen, it's all about advancement for the member, and those the brotherhood deem to be like them.

No, it isn't show some evidence...

Membership should be a sacking offence in any public sector or publicly funded organisation.

Mmm. Think we should be compiling registers of Freemasons? Perhaps you'd like to add Gypsies, homosexuals and Jews to that list.... You wouldn't be the first...

MardyBra
I could research it on th net, but frankly I cba.

So why kick off about it.

However, unless there is some transparency,

What like a FreeMason answering questions?
"but they're good because of this, this and this (OneMoreChap style)"

Didn't think I'd said that...

Beaverfeaver
he did have both the Freemasons cloak with leather apron which he wore and e definitley had a mitre hat which was completely different too.

Sounds like the lambskin apron for Craft Masonry, and the Mitre is possibly Royal Arch or one of the other side orders.

StickMeToTheMan
That's the thing, members of other organisations are compelled to disclose for public jobs such as police or council. Members of trade unions have to, and any management or trusteeship of any other organisation. Not the masons though. Why?

Do you have to declare: religion, membership of an amateur dramatic society, charitable body, voluntary organisation?

I don't 'woffle on', OneMoreChap and your rudeness is unnecessary.

Onemorechap, what profession are you in?

a Jedi master

OneMoreChap works with troubled teens. I dont know in what capacity.

Chap, your argument is fatuous and insulting. People choose to be Freemasons, they don't choose to be Jewish, or gay, or members of the travelling community.

And it's difficult to show evidence when the whole ethos of the organisation is secrecy. But I have seen people give others Masonic handshakes in their professional lives, which is totally unprofessional. And I have heard from close relatives about their being given Masonic handshakes when they were in a tendering process for a public sector organisation. And every time it happened, he phoned their boss and complained. And no, they didn't get the contract.

"Do you have to declare: religion, membership of an amateur dramatic society, charitable body, voluntary organisation?"

Yes. If you have an organisational role in a religious group you have to, and yes to the others. Just not masons.

I don't need to cite something other than rumour. I have met the man, and I firmly believe that what is coming out is true. I did state that this would come out months ago, when he died. I was shot down by a lot of posters citing the charity shite.

FM had many levels, I am happy to believe that at the most basic levels it is both benign and charitable. I have FMs in the family, and previous generations have been heavily involved, as have previous boyfriends.

Knowing what I know about some of those people, I am more than happy to believe that the higher levels of FM are anything but benign.

What is the point of the handshake though if its not there to identify one mason to another in a secret way, but your not secret as all the mrs masons and masons on here have said, but you are because you give a secret shake, god I'm confused.

Yes, quite. Why have a secret handshake? When is it used, and for what purposes?

OMC, when have you used it? Do you do every handshake as one, only with people you know to be masons, or do you pick and choose? If so, how do you pick and choose?

I've lost out on 3 teaching jobs because another applicant went to church with the head teacher (in one case another applicants mother, not her). This being the only reason that I was given (and given informally, one to one so I could not complain. To suggest this is something which is unique to masonry is idiotic, it happens all the damn time.

I have never, in any walk of life been asked to declare groups I am a part of and I'm a union member, have been involved in local council etc. I don't see why masons should NEED to declare themselves when, say, golf club members do not.

My husband greets everyone with the handshake. Not to gain some kind of advantage for himself as he never has (to his knowledge) gained an advantage for being a mason. But it's a conversation starter if the person whose hand he is shaking happens to return the shake. If he were offered a job, or some kind of work advancement simply due to this he'd be damn right insulted.

People on this thread are really being a bit hysterical about the whole thing. The type of people who 'gain advantage' in dodgy ways through being masons, and I don't doubt they exist, would and probably do, gain advantage in other ways even if Masons did not exist. Don't you think similar happens in groups like the Lions? Or even just a working mans club, do they publish lists of their members? (perhaps they do, I don't know)

We mention charitable works, not as an excuse for JS and his actions, but because the OP asked for information on why the masons exist and what they do. Charitable work is part of the answer to this. They publish a list of which charities are helped, so this is hardly secret

What we have on this thread is a few people who actually know what they are talking about and a few people who are going on hearsay and some frankly ridiculous fiction and are unwilling to listen to reason as they have no intention of changing their minds. I don't know what more you want then people who are actually involved answering your questions.

DH an I have had a bit of a laugh about it but its really starting to annoy me when people are tarring him with the same brush as people like JS just because they may belong to the same, frankly enormous, club. I've never hid a thread on Mums net but I'm getting very close.

Oh, and did you hear, the masons faked the moon landings too.

The handshake was used to identify whether you were a freemason or not - remember this was set up at a time when there was no electric light etc so if you needed to be sure someone was who they said they were, and were entitled to attend meetings, you could not see a hand wavy sort of gesture, so a handshake was used. In dark or light, you can prove you are a freemason without a word. It is very subtle and I'm not sure even if you were looking for it you could see it.
Various thoughts as to when it can be used - some say you can use it if you think a person is a mason but do not want to ask outright - some only if you know the person is a mason.

As far as I know, you have to declare membership of the masons if you are applying to be in the police or a judge. May be wrong but I thought you had to.

My DH used to wear a Round Table badge to work - a sign he was proud of his membership - would not mean anything to anyone else but Tablers.

"I have never, in any walk of life been asked to declare groups I am a part of and I'm a union member, have been involved in local council etc."

Not for being a union member, or for being 'involved' in local council, but for being a councillor, magistrate etc.

You don't have to declare being a mason for police applications, and Jack Straw tried to change the rules so that new applications for judges did have to be declared, but that got scrapped.

Sorry, it was introduced, and existed for 11 years, but then was scrapped. here

Do you have to declare being a member of a golf club on police applications? Or a football team?

I don't know much about police applications, but for council you have to declare membership to any clubs or societies (other than the freemasons).

So was JS a Freemason?

To be on the board of trustees of a charity you do have to declare membership of any masonic organisation.

Apparently so, but it seems to be a bit secret.

So, when you apply to be a councillor, or however it works, does the firm (or whatever) say

Please declare all groups you are part of (excepting Freemasons)

?

Because as far as my DH is concerned if a form asked him to declare groups he is a member of he would list the Freemasons. He has never been told he does not have to.

And anyway, even if it was not declared, surely they would greet an interviewer with the handshake and thus declare it.

As per my previous comment it does seem that people who have experience of the masons and are 'for them' expect their accounts to be taken on trust whilst dismissing accounts from those who have close experience which does not reflect so well as nonsense. Eg the poster's DH who had a lot of pressure to join because of contacts, and the handshake in procurement meetings.

Isn't it likely, as wkdsm says that some groups don't use it to take unfair advantage, and that others do?

doodlekitty I also think its outrageous to lose a job just because someone goes to the interviewer's church, and that reasonable steps should be taken to stop that too.

Can someone tell me how freemasons are linked to the JS scandal? I've tried googling but can't find anything.

As I said, I'm sure there are people who use it to gain. But they are the type who also use their golf club, family, mates down the pub, to gain. I don't understand why the masons demonised for what SOME of their members MAY do and other organisations are not (meaning this thread, not life in general). As I said in a very early post, there are wankers in every walk of life. Some wankers are Masons, some are schoolteachers, some are scoutmasters. That's just life