Need advice quickly so posting in Aibu. Bullying problem in pre school...

[Badvoc]

Sooooo....
I finally know why my ds2 is so distressed about pre school all of a sudden
He is being bullied
I just fucking knew it.
A child does not go from happily running in every morning to clinging and begging me not to leave him for no reason!
At night time he is crying he doesn't want to go :(
I had a word with pre school last week and they said no problems.
So I accepted this.
Then today I took him to a messy play session for kids and mums run by the pre school in the afternoon...oh my god
One child who hasn't been there too long (conincidentally after he started was when Toby began to be upset) was simply vile to him and his mother just sat there.
I am so upset and angry and dh is away and I don't know what to do.
I can't go through this again. Ds1 was badly bullied from nursery right though to year 2 by the same child and school always played it down. This has had serious effects in ds1. At age 6 he was showing symptoms of clinical depression. (I took him out btw and he is now happy at a new school)
This child took every toy Ds2 had, snatched, pinched and crushed his hand.
ds2 shares well and gave the child the toys without complaint but it broke my heart. Ds2 went outside to get away from him and he followed and again snatched all the toys ds2 was playing with.
The child ended the session by having a screaming fit and throwing a brush across the playground. His mother then stepped in. Oh, and she is a teacher apparently (this is relevant bear with me!)
After the session I spoke to the manager and said "well, now we know what the problem is!" She said this child had never behaved like that before and that his mother works full time so it was perhaps because she was there?
Was that a dig at me because I am a sahm? Whatever, it's a pretty feeble excuse IMO.
I am so angry with the pre school...there are only 8 kids to 2 key workers most mornings so there is no excuse for missing this.
Aibu in keeping him off tomorrow. -this child goes on a Friday ?
Do I send a letter?
Phone the manager?
I don't know what to do or even whether to tell dh as he is working away....
Feel very alone and sick with worry.

Yeah.
I tried nice.
I tried firm.
He just ignored me.
I think let ds2 down today.
I should have left.

I do mean this nicely but please get a grip OP, this child is not bullying your child BUT this does not mean his behaviour is in any way acceptable. You do need to point it out as it happens. At the time, you need to step in and intervene if his mother is not going to. He's 3 and badly behaved according to your description but labelling little children as bullies is not helpful.

Ok sorry cross posted and missed information, I'm tired. Did you remove your DS from the situation?

Hmmmm...I don't know.
My older boy was bullied by the same child from nursery - age 3 -til year 2 -age 7 - when did it become bullying and not just being naughty??
Seriously, I am confused, what age is this defined as?
When does being naughty change to bullying?

If the other child is only there 2 days per week, it might be useful to see how your DS reacts to going in on Mon if you tell him that the other child won't be there. And, if possible observing his behaviour that day so that you can compare it to when the other child is around.

It is still possible that his reluctance isnt related to the other child but is the only thing he has been able to articulate. Especially if you (unwittingly) led his answers... ie Is X mean to you at nursery, is that why you don't want to go? May have led him to give the answer that you seemed to expect.

Yes.
I might try that in Monday...say xxxx isn't here today and see what happens...
ATM I feel pre school is saying there are no issues and that this child has never behaved like that before...I am unconvinced.
I guess that means I don't trust them doesn't it?
:(

You're pissed off at nursery staff for not being onto it; yet you were there yourself and did nothing????? How come you didn't involve the other mum?

Clearly you have major anxiety regarding your DS1's situation and be careful that you don't let this rub off on DS2, children do pick up on this sort of thing, even if it's unconscious.

I do sympathise, but I also think you've got this well out of proportion. The behaviour, although unpleasant, doesn't sound atypical for the age group. Some behaviour at that age is downright horrid, imo, which is why it's important that children are guided properly to stop it progressing into bullying.

You've expressed your concerns, now give them chance to deal with them. Try not to project anything on to your dc, be bright and breezy and carry on as normal. Hopefully it will be a phase which quickly passes.

I have sympathy for you OP, my DD went to a brilliant preschool and she's a very strong character but she did endure some hassle from a couple of girls. Some days she was a bit unhappy to go. I'm not very experienced at dealing with bullying but I encouraged her to tell a teacher, tell the perpetrator to 'go away', etc.

These girls would say things like 'I hate you', say things about her skin colour (shes mixed race)... I didn't see the girls as bullies as they were so young, I just saw it as one of life's lessons. I will always encourage her to stand up herself even if it means getting in trouble with the teacher as I never felt able to do that when I was younger, was too much of a people pleaser.

Thank you all for your replies

I have every sympathy for your concerns, but I think you need to try to get this all back in perspective. You sound as though you have got yourself into a strangely passive, but panicked state where you are thinking the worst but not actually doing anything about it.

If this was going on for two hours, I do not understand why you did not do or say anything, to the mother or to the staff. It almost seems as though you let it go on to reinforce your belief that this child is the source of the problem when you actually have no evidence whatsoever that this has happened more than once.

I think you need to be very careful about saying to your child "x isn't here" or doing role plays about him, as you run the risk of putting the idea in his head that x is scary and bad, when it is quite possible that x is absolutely nothing to do with your DS's reluctance about pre-school.

You don't need to have a go at anyone, or shout or hit anyone. You just need to speak to the pre-school and explain that you have had concerns about your DS and that you are now wondering if this other child has anything to do with the problem. You can arrange to go into the pre-school to observe and you can try to get some idea from your DS what is going on, if anything.

Ultimately you are in control, if you let yourself be. If you aren't satisfied with what is going on then you can move your DS elsewhere, but I strongly suspect that things aren't going to turn out to be as terrible as you are now thinking.

I hope so kungfu.
It's so hard without dh here to bounce ideas off.
Whatever happens I will go,with my gut instinct this time.

OP, you don't need to try out role plays specifically about the other child as Kungfu points out, you need to do general phrases with him to help him assert himself. But pick a time when you're both calm and relaxed. That's both of you . You've whirled yourself into a frenzy now, and I think you're finding it difficult to see things for what they are. Go to the pre-school, speak calmly to the manager, ask them to monitor the situation. MEanwhile, keep finding ways to boost your DS's confidence and just try to relax a bit.

I think I was just so...stunned.
I know that sounds daft, but I really was.
It was all a bit twilight zone, or it felt that way to me...

I'm not sure why you're so stunned/shocked/heartbroken. I just don't get it. This seems remarkably common and you've experienced an older child being picked on yet you didn't step in when you saw your younger son being picked on by a naughty child?

what crashdollGOLD said.

How did you do the role play? With dd I talked to her about the incident and what she could have done differently, basically gave per permission to say no get off me! She came up with no thank you I don't like that

OK, I haven't yet read the whole thread but I had a similar problem that may help you.
DD goes to nursery a couple of days a week. She loved it. Then she started talking about a 'nasty boy' - I didn't think too much of it. She also started getting a bit more clingy at drop-off time.
Then, finally one day, she came up the corridor with a staff member at collection time, and told me about the nasty boy who had chased her and frightened her. The staff member heard, and was concerned, and we sat down there and then, with her, to try and establish what she meant. It transpired that they had been playing with some music bits, and this lad had banged things next to her loudly. She doesn't like loud noise (unless she's making it!) so she'd run away. He thought she was playing so he chased her. That's a big no-no - for some reason being chased scares the crap out of her. She kept running, he kept chasing - it ended in tears. What the staff hadn't realised was just how scared she was, and the fact that this wasn't the first time he'd frightened her like that, or that he was deliberately doing things to get her to run away (to start the game, as he saw it) - they'd often seen them running together but hadn't realised DD was getting upset about it.

It wasn't bullying - this lad had just found someone who seemed willing to play a great running game with him every time he faniced it! He, aged 4, wasn't to know how scared dd was getting.
So, the staff member and I had a chat to dd about what to do if he did it again (say "No, I don't like that") and if he persisted, she was to tell someone so they could help her. They also had a chat with the boy and explained that sometimes people don't like the same games you do, and then you had to stop trying to play them.
And they kept a close eye on it. After a fortnight, we had no further instances or mentions of nasty boys.

It did rely on the staff being on the ball though, and accepting that for dd it was a genuine problem. It really wasn't bullying though - she wasn't being targeted for herself, but because she reacted the way he liked.

Maybe the fact that your ds gives stuff up is actually part of the problem - he's being targeted because the other child knows that there won't be a battle whereas the other kids might be more reluctant? Can you talk to the staff, say you are really concerned, and maybe have a think with them about strategies that your ds could use, knowing that if they don't work the staff will help him out, and that they'll be keeping an eye on any interactions that do go on between the boys?

Thank you baby.
That was very helpful.
Have spoken to a friend tonight and feel much better now.
Or at least not so upset :)
Crash gold and sophy - that is exactly why I didn't interfere...I realise better than anyone that I am very sensitive to what I perceive as bullying. I thought a watch and wait approach would be best.
I was wrong.
I tried role play earlier and it wasn't very successful :)
Will try again.
Both my boys are very laid back, And I wouldn't change them for the world.
Always quite depressing when people tell you that your child needs to change when it's not em that's causing the problem!!

Sorry to hear that your DS2 is having a hard time going to preschool, and DS1 had some unhappy time at school. Bullying and preschool are two terms that can not possibly go together. I just can not bring myself to describe a toddler as a bully. I do not think toddlers have an understanding that they hurt other people, and they do not do this intentionally, they are learning to interact with others. On the other hand, being in the receiving end have an effect on the toddler, as you have sadly experience with your DS1. So talk to the workers/teacher in the preschool about the aggressive behaviour you have seen. Tell your DS2 to ask for help if someone hurts him or tries to do so, or snatch his toys. If there is not improvement in a month or so, just move him to another preschool or take him out. Teach him to say loudly, EY do not do that, it is nasty/ naughty/ hurts, Hey!!! do not push me. Loudly and in a strong tone.

Thanks Lydia.
I think that is the conclusion I have come to tbh.
I will give it til half term which is 3 weeks away.

How many mornings a week does your DS go to pre school? I would suggest changing the days so he never goes on the same day as the other boy, and see if that resolves the problem. If it doesn't, then you know there's more to it.

So sorry to see you so worried. I honestly feel reading your posts that you have some kind of post traumatic stress about the earlier bullying. I think you can't see the wood for the trees because your earlier experience is clouding your judgement. Have you been bullied too? I think some counselling would help you so much. Hope things improve for your little one. Sounds like you all need to build a bit of resilience. Sometimes you need help with this. Hugs (())

Imagine...that's exactly what my friend said!
He goes 5 mornings per week ATM, well since they went back after the summer.
I may take him back down to 3. It's not something he has to do after all.
Thank you all for your replies....I have to say seeing as I posted this in Aibu I expected a real kicking, so thank you for not doing that x
Wrt PTSD...I think you have to go through something much worse than what I have to get that tbh...although I do concede that it's something that was deeply upsetting and very stressful at at the time.
Yes, I was bullied at school. Well, primary anyway. I know the damage it can do to a child first hand.
I really also dint agree with the listers above who have said that this behaviour is normal....I know a lot of kids this age and none of them behave like that!
Thank you all again for your replies. They have really helped.