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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

763 replies

PierreBourdieu · 23/09/2012 11:01

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

OP posts:
FranSanDisco · 23/09/2012 13:22

Dh is a Scot and I'm Irish/English. We live in England. DH is all for independence and I don't care one way or t'other tbh.

TapirBackRider · 23/09/2012 13:22

How naive you are to think that people will change simply because you desire it.

As for sheep? No-one has mentioned that but you. Is that something you have an issue with?

Bilbobagginstummy · 23/09/2012 13:24

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - that's not much of an argument: there could be many ways of running referenda/considering in Parliament (for example 2 parallel rederenda or a Westminster vote excluding Scottish MPs).

The United Kingdom is a country of 60-odd million people across 4 countries. It is the business of all of us if one of those countries seeks to end our nation state and replace it with another.

KatieScarlett2833 · 23/09/2012 13:26

I'm not naive, thanks.

And the sheep remark was in response to the "party that parents, grandparents voted for".

Nice try, though.

Narked · 23/09/2012 13:26

Really? I don't think of myself as British or as 'part of the UK.' I'm English.

TapirBackRider · 23/09/2012 13:27

Not a try - just pointing out the opinions of the people I live around, and work with.

Nice of you to minimise them though. Well done.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/09/2012 13:30

bilbo the clues in the name. The United Kingdom is not a country, it is a union of four countries. If one of those countries wishes to leave the union it is a matter for that country.

But this is irrelevant as the Electoral commission has already ruled that only Scots should Ben involved in the vote.

KatieScarlett2833 · 23/09/2012 13:31

My point was that I have faith in my fellow Scots to make an informed choice either way.

You have stated above that you do not.

Now who is minimising?

Not I.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 23/09/2012 13:31

Not only Scots, only people on the electoral rolls in Scotland.

rainonmyparade · 23/09/2012 13:35

I am a Scot, living in Scotland.

No way will I or any of my family be voting for Independence.

Fishwife1949 · 23/09/2012 13:36

Um all i can say is good luck with joing the euro and what would they do for currencey and tax also

Good luck with defence

I think its up to the scotts but i think the urge to be apart makes people blind to the things that are good about being together

Personally i think a think like jersery would be better

RumbleGreen · 23/09/2012 13:39

Really don't care either way if they do want to go their own way I wish them luck (English)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/09/2012 13:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NapaCab · 23/09/2012 13:40

"As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective."

Why? English people don't spend their time pondering what Scottish people think and seeking the opinions of Scottish people on English issues.

Reminds me of the time I saw a Hogmanay celebration and a discussion of Scottish identity came up. Some eejit woman from Glasgow started saying she didn't like all the displays of Scottish nationalism because what would the neighbours to the south think of it? She seemed stuck in some captive mentality where she could only see Scottishness through English eyes and found her own country embarrassing. 'What would the English think of us?' seemed to be the narrative in her head. That's why Scotland needs independence, to get rid of that sort of mindset in the country.

PennyDead · 23/09/2012 13:40

Scot, living in Scotland. I was at the rally yesterday and myself, my partner and hopefully if they don't they're dead to me all 4 of my kids will be voting for independence. I'm not going to justify my reasons here with a bunch of people who've probably never even heard of the Barnett formula and how Scotland has consistently put more into the Treasury than it's taken out. Alba Gu Brath.

TapirBackRider · 23/09/2012 13:41

[yawn]

I made a point about the people I work and live with, and I am realistic as to how they think about politics. I would rather base my expectations on this than on having faith in them to do the right thing.

LadyBeagleEyes · 23/09/2012 13:41

Wow, that is the longest post I've ever seen on Mumsnet.

RubyStolenBootyGates · 23/09/2012 13:41

It's an interesting point, the automatic entry of Scotland as an independent state, isn't it?

As part of Britain does Scotland profit by its membership? I don't know how you'd find out because the figures are so dense and entangled.

Would Scotland as an entity, in and of its self, retain membership to the EU? Would the EU want Scotland? It's another minefield that I don't hear or see discussed. And am very interested in.

As a mostly English person living in England I'm also thinking about the complexities of who gets to vote in the referendum? Scots in Scotland? Everyone in Scotland? The whole of the Union? Scots outside of Scotland.

I think on balance I'd be quite in favour of seeing Scotland become independent if there was a true vote for that.

(I'm not sure why you thought my last post was childish Peanut I was just using a metaphor, to emphasise my thoughts on the matter which I followed up with a musing about the EU, what are your thoughts on that?)

DesperatelySeekingPomBears · 23/09/2012 13:44

English, living in England and I can't say it bothers me either way as long as its absolute, and doesn't involve cherry picking which parts of being in the UK they enjoy.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/09/2012 13:45

Sorry c and p fail, try again....

defence
If we were to believe the Westminster parties, after independence the Scottish defence capability would consist of a freefone number and a recorded message saying "We surrender" in six languages. We'd be defenceless against the Faroese hordes invading Muckle Flugga.

There's a chasm between an independent Scotland's approach to defence and Westminster's approach. It's a conceptual difference Westminster is unable to grasp, and it explains Michael Moore's recent plaintive whine that an independent Scotland would not be able to go off on its own bat and invade some Middle Eastern country, like that would be a bad thing. An independent Scotland only requires a defence capacity, Westminster requires an attack capacity.

Scotland's notional share of Westminster's Department of Offence spending amounts to around £3.5 billion annually. Less than £2 billion of that is actually spent in Scotland. Even if we were to maintain defence spending exactly as it is now, we'd still have an extra £1.5 billion to play with. The savings we'd make by no longer coughing up for Westminster's pretensions to Great Power status would alone pay for investment in Scottish jobs and industry which would more than compensate for any loss of defence sector jobs.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/09/2012 13:47

EU and Euro

his all hinges on whether Scotland would be considered a successor state to the UK, or whether it would be considered an entirely new state. Would Germany, which imports much of its oil from Scotland, want to ensure Scotland remained a part of the EU? Or would Merkell and Sarkozy go along with Davie Cameron, who royally pisses them off and brings nothing to Europe except an Etonian sense of entitlement?

Let's assume that the EU decides to support Westminster in its epic sulk, and demands that Scotland reapply to join the EU but England-Wales-Northern Ireland remained a member. This would mean that Scotland is considered an entirely new state. In that circumstance, international law is very clear that Scotland would not be bound by any of the obligations of the UK. Amongst other things, that means that Scotland would not be required to take on a single penny of UK national debt. UK national debt is a UK obligation. The UK ruined the banks, so the UK can pay for it.

It's very much in Westminster's interests to ensure that Scotland is treated as a joint successor state and that Scotland remains a member of the EU, otherwise we get to walk off Scot-free and without any national debt at all. We could leave that mess to Westminster to sort out, and begin independent life as an energy rich debt-free nation. In that fortunate financial circumstance, surviving a couple of years as we apply for EU membership may well be worth it.

Another reason Westminster is blustering on this issue is that the UK was formed by the Union of Scotland and England in 1707. The state formed by that Union signed the EU membership treaties. When Scotland becomes independent, then the UK ceases to exist, and England-Wales-Northern-Ireland are in exactly the same legal situation as Scotland, because the state comprising England Wales and Northern Ireland didn't sign the EU accession treaties either. This is the opinion of a former Labour Lord Chancellor, who was asked about it by no less a person than Norman On Yer Bike Tebbit, no fan of Scottish self-determination. Tebbit quoted the unnamed Lord Chancellor as saying: "But what about the new state of England, Northern Ireland and Wales? Would we remain members? After all our new state would not have been a party to the Treaty either."

This opinion is also shared by EU lawyers. According to a report in the Scotsman, the EU would treat Scotland and the rump-UK equally as successor states. Both would continue as EU members, but would have to renegotiate their terms of membership. That puts Westminster's precious opt-outs at risk, so you can see why they're keeching themselves on this issue. The matter would be decided by a majority vote in the EU Council, so no country could veto Scottish membership.

No country can be forced into the euro. The Czech Republic joined the EU in 2004, after the euro had been adopted as the common currency of the original 11 members of the Eurozone. The Czechs won't be bounced into the euro, and have consistently refused to make moves to adopt it.

In January 2012, Czech Prime Minister Petr Nečas stated that the country did not require a special opt-out in order to retain the koruna as its currency. Mr Nečas said: "No one can force us into joining the euro ... We have a de facto opt-out." Candidates for euro membership must sign up to ERM II for at least two years before adopting the euro as currency, however it is entirely up to the discretion of each individual member state when to sign up to ERM II and member countries can legitimately delay this indefinitely. But Mr Nečas said all this in Czech, so it wasn't reported in the Anglocentric Unionist media.

This approach has also been adopted by the government of Sweden which has likewise declined to join the Eurozone but has no negotiated opt-out.

moonieponds · 23/09/2012 13:48

I don't have a problem with Scotland being neutral like Switzerland was.

PennyDead · 23/09/2012 13:48

I've just glanced through but haven't seen any mention of Trident. If any self respecting Scot gives a bollocks about the future of their kids/grandkids, they should vote for independence on this issue alone. Get this shit out of Scotland!

RubyStolenBootyGates · 23/09/2012 13:49

Thank You ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I shall be off to read that with a cup of coffee and a jammie dodger. V. Interesting.

Bilbobagginstummy · 23/09/2012 13:49

But the electoral commission is not in a position to rule on the constitutional issues.

As I said, I find it very odd how the Westminster policies as regards Scotland and Northern Ireland are so different. What is your view on Northern Ireland? Do you think that it should have been abandoned to the bombers years ago?