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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

763 replies

PierreBourdieu · 23/09/2012 11:01

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

OP posts:
Jins · 24/09/2012 11:15

Some really nasty views on this thread :(

Charlie1972 · 24/09/2012 11:16

Good question Honeytea.

I'm in a similar-ish boat to you.

Nationality and the whole passport ownership issue hasn't appeared on the radar yet, (not that i've seen anyhow) as an issue on either side yet. Guess, with two whole years to go, this is bound to be asked, I'd like to know too!

I'd hope that you'd get a choice. I've got 'Scotland' on my driving licence, so I think i'd apply for a Scots passport come the day. Though i'm not that fussed, don;t think it makes a lot of difference once you get past the front cover logo, as there would be no difference in its use.

Good question though...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2012 11:18

Narked, yes, some areas of Scotland have woefully low life expectancies as will lots of England when the welfare cuts and loss of NHs start to bite The difference is, after independence we would be in charge of our own welfare state, so could have a proper go at fixing this, whereas at the moment we are constrained by the one-size-fits-all approach from Westminster.

Lovelygoldboots · 24/09/2012 11:20

Narked, your comment was not as funny or clever as you might like to think.

imogengladhart · 24/09/2012 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Narked · 24/09/2012 11:20

Not a misapprehension. Scotland eg needs more NHS funds per head of poulation as you have higher rates of alcoholism, lung cancer etc. It's also enjoyed the treatment that all areas of the UK with low employment get - businesses are 'encouraged' to settle there and state money is pumped in. All the currently exploited natural resources have profits deals signed years ago. Just as you only want the % of national debt based on your % of the UK population, you'll only get the % of income from them based on your % of UK population.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 11:21

Hmm I am sensing a bit of a superior attitude here

Narked · 24/09/2012 11:22

Please, tell me the approach you'll use in Glasgow that's different from any used by Westminster.

londonone · 24/09/2012 11:23

Charlie your post of 11.06 is exactly what peanut has been complaining about. If we do do as you suggest it seems some scots get very upset and if we don't , people like you wonder why not! It seems the english can't win! And as I said before I don't know anyone English who has tried to " hold the scots back" we don't even really think about it.

Lovelygoldboots · 24/09/2012 11:25

oooh English people live longer and scottish people are all alkies and die sooner and waste nhs resournces. And I'm out. this thread has taken a pathetic turn. Enjoy your pointless arguing.

Narked · 24/09/2012 11:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15372869

Charlie1972 · 24/09/2012 11:29

Lovelygoldboots. You're unfortunately spot on. Parts of Glasgow have a lower life expectancy than Baghdad, and health policy has never changed massively to help that.

For Scots to make that call, with their own money, with their own decisions is all thats asked. We'd rather screw up ourselves than have someone else screw it up for us! ;-)

As JFK famously quoted "To Govern is to Choose"

Narked · 24/09/2012 11:30

I didn't say you waste NHS resources, I said you get more per head of population to spend on the NHS because of the higher rates of certain health issues.

honeytea · 24/09/2012 11:32

Thanks for the reply Charlie :)

I think living aboard has made me feel more connected to my nationality, I definatly feel British rather than Scottish, I guess it will be easier for those people still living in the UK to get a UK passport and decline a Scottish passport even if they were born in Scotland. I really hope that to get a British passport I wouldn't have to apply in retrospect bassed on my parents nationality, the main reason for this would be that as far as I'm aware a duel nationality bassed purely on parents nationality can only be passed down one generation so I could be British bassed on my parents nationality but my children could not inherit my British nationlaity only my Scottish nationality.

The reason I would want them to be British/Swedes is because I feel British, it's nothing negative about Scotland just my personal lack of connection to Scottish culture.

I do think that even those people living abroad/in the rest of the UK who's nationality could possibly be altered should have the opportunity to vote, I feel very uncomfortable with tge idea of other people deciding what nationality I am, I thought that was part of the reason for Scottish independence in the first place!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2012 11:34

Narked, the government in edinburgh already chooses to do things differently than the Westminster government.

We have no SAT
You are guaranteed a school place if you are within catchment
We have 7 years primary /6 secondary/4 at uni
No free schools
No academies
Different curriculum and ethos
We have free university education

Our NHS is entirely separate from england/wales
We have free prescriptions for all (saves more in admin)
Free eyetests
Our NHs is not being privatised

We are putting more police on the streets

We are giving public sector workers a pay rise.

The things we can do differently we already do!

With independence we will save vast amounts of money not paying for trident, we will administer our welfare differently, we will deal with tax differently....

We have a different law system

We brought in the smoking ban first

Lovelygoldboots · 24/09/2012 11:34

Well why the joke about life expectancy. Sorry but I don't find that funny. Scotland also has unique health problems concerning skin cancer, multiple sclerosis and depression. But I guess they are considered more "deserving of treatment" than the disease of alcholism.

bureni · 24/09/2012 11:35

Regarding passports, it is simple enough to have 2 passports for the same country giving you dual nationality.

JMacks · 24/09/2012 11:36

If Scotland votes for independence, the UK wont exist anymore, as the United Kingdom refers to the political union between Scotland and England/Wales. Therefore, the argument that Scotland will have to renegotiate with the EU, while the remainder of the UK will remain in the same deal is not correct. There will be two new political entities - Scotland and England/Wales/NI. Either negotiations will have to take place between both with the EU, or the EU will allow both parts entry under current arrangement.

And to be clear, this is about the end of political union, nothing else. All this discussion, and argument, in this thread about the difference in cultures is totally unnecessary. Scotland is being given the opportunity to choose its own political path. And politically we are quite different to the rest of the UK, England in particular. Scotland is primarily a socialist-voting country, left of centre. England on the other hand leans more towards the right, hence the current Tory government (and the only other viable alternative being a more and more right-leaning Labour party). This is why devolution has been good for Scotland - despite these parties being in power at Westminster, we've been able to maintain social policies in the areas that are devolved because we can vote for a socialist party in Scotland even if the choice is not available to us in Westminster elections. And this is why we have what some see as the unfair benefits of free education, a healthy NHS, free prescriptions etc. It's not because of an unfair distribution of money, it's because of a difference in policy. Meanwhile the Tories are hiking up tuition fees for those south of the border, privatising schools, privatising the NHS, talk of privatising major roads. This is why many people want independence for Scotland. The areas that aren't devolved are currently in Tory hands, and Scotland in general does not like Tory policies - we have only one Tory MP in Scotland. It is unfair therefore that Scotland should have to put up with them. What's more, the Westminster government currently has the right to take back any devolved powers at any time they see fit, so for Scotland to truly be governed in the way its people want, independence is the only certain way of achieving it.

Devo max seems to be a popular idea in Scotland, where all but defense and foreign affairs are run from Scotland. Effectively all money earned by Scotland remains with Scotland, and a lump sum will be sent to Westminster to pay for defense and foreign affairs. I personally don't support this because I detest the way Westminster uses these powers for nuclear weapons, illegal wars and unnecessary meddling in other countries, and believe a Scottish parliament would spend that money far more wisely. But to reassure those who are shouting about how unfair it would be if Scotland gets to choose devo-max without consultation with the rest of the UK, and that it's all-or-nothing, in the unlikely event that devo-max was to appear on the referendum (and it almost certainly wont), the Scottish government does not have the right to declare devo-max, it would only demonstrate the desire for that from the Scottish electorate, and would give the Scottish government a mandate to try to negotiate a devo-max settlement with the rest of the UK. So no need to worry there.

The Bank of England is an independent identity. It does not belong to England, it is simply a machine for controlling the pound. Scotland would have every right to continue using the pound if it became independent, and no political party could prevent this. The Bank of England could refuse if they felt that having Scotland use the currency would be a detriment on the pound. This will never happen, it would weaken the pound to remove Scotland, especially considering the money and stability that North Sea oil provides. The Bank of England is a shared asset of the union, and upon independence, Scotland owns a share of that asset (as it does all other assets, and of course the national debt). There are plenty of examples of currency unions - the Euro being an obvious one. It's also true that Australia and Ireland both kept the pound for many years before creating their own currency, and there were no issues with that, so why should it be different with Scotland?

Narked · 24/09/2012 11:38

Scotland gets more funding per head of population because of health issues. It's one of the reasons they can afford to give free prescriptions!

honeytea · 24/09/2012 11:39

But Brunei I think it's harder to gave 3 passports and my main nationality would be Scottish as I was born there and although I lived in England for 24 years I no longer live there so I would only be able to apply for a British passport bassed on my parents nationality. I don't think I can pass inherited nationality onto my children so they would be half Scottish half Swedish.

University fees are free in both countries anyone want to do a nationality swap, maybe somewhere warm ;)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2012 11:41

Narked, or may be we just choose to spend the money differently? We may get more per head via the Barnett for la, and but money does not just ow one way. Scotland gives more than it takes!

JMacks · 24/09/2012 11:41

Narked, Scotland doesn't get any more money for the NHS because of worse health. There is a set amount of money sent from Westminster, and it's the Scottish Government that decides how that is distributed, and they've chosen to do it wisely.

Lovelygoldboots · 24/09/2012 11:42

If you are that concerned about free prescriptions Narked then use your own vote. It is all wrapped in the idea that the English subsidise the Scots and adds nothing to the devolution debate

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 24/09/2012 11:42

Disclaimer: I have only read the first page :)

I don't think it's purely up to the people of Scotland. I think that as a Union it is up to all the people of the UK to decide. All this twaddle that English people spout about them being a drain on English taxes - it's not like the English never expolited the Scottish and anyway, it does not take into account that yes, Scottish people do pay UK taxes as well They could equally complain that their taxes are subsidising the people of Dewsbury, or wherever.

Scotland going its own way makes me very anxious about the future of Wales as well, because Wales would not want independence from the UK, but if Scotland was lost, then I feel the status of Wales would be very much diminished and in the eyes of many English people, it would become even more "just part of England" than it is already. Possibly the people of Northern Ireland may feel similar - I don't know. Wales would be stuck with a Tory government forever even if they never again return a Tory MP.

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