To be deeply puzzled by competitive anti- feminism.......

[seeker]

"I'm not a feminist"

"oh, I'm so much less of a feminist than you are"

"I'm so not a femynyst I don't even know how to spell it"

It's not so much that I don't agree- it's that I don't understand. Genuinely.

As far as I am aware, the only views expressed on "that" thread was that people should be treated with respect. Everybody agreed on that. I thought they hadn't been. Others thought they had and told me so, in varying degrees of forcefulness.
There were personal attacks- as far as I know going one way only- but why anyone could describe what I posted as. "bile" just baffles me. And please don't say that that just shows what a vile person I am- that really won't help.

It is? Why are other women so concerned about what other women are doing to their pubic hair? I agree that there has been a pornification of society, and that women are, on a constant basis, bombarded with unrealistic imagery that completely destroys any concept of what is normal, and a woman's self-confidence. BUT if you have someone say "I've thought about this, and I do it because: it's more comfortable, I prefer the sensation when during sex etc. etc." and they got told effectively that no,they're a brainwashed moron who can't think for themselves, it is crap.

It's why I now steer way way clear of the feminism board and any of that kind of discussion, because there are people on here who think that if you do/don't do x, y and z you're an anti-feminist idiot, and it's offputting.

Couldn't agree more Absy

It's actually quite sad to see some feminists doing so much damage to the cause.

I'm starting to mentally visualise some people wearing balaclavas and posting on MN surrounded by petrol bombs...

The people I dislike on here are the ones that get nastily personal, and this is usually about wording, "any type of wording"

A for instance that sticks in my mind was a poster called a guide dog a blind dog, now I thought that was rather funny, as in obviously it's not the dog that's blind. One poster then called her an illiterate cunt. How awful is that?

So I presume then that I am being accused of being one of those sort of MN feminists then Kayano?

Oh yes, you do get lots of "those shoes are hid - GET RID" but it doesn't get down to lambasting someone's sense of self or insulting their intelligence. Much.

What I am trying to say that some "people" will take anything to the extreems and twist it around. This has nothing whatsoever to do with being a feminist.

Someone asked what MN feminism could possibly be. I'm just saying how I perceive it

And it's that

Also seeker just upthread was saying that someone's opinion didn't count as they hasn't produced evidence, but conveniently ignored all the posts asking for evidence of competitive anti feminism

They use the same tactics they complain about but do it with an air of authority

It's not so much that I don't agree- it's that I don't understand. Genuinely.

Well, many people did explain why they felt that way about views posted on that thread. If you really don't understand after all of that, then I don't think there is any way that I can make you understand, but the fact remains that many posters felt that way about that thread and that may now be colouring their perceptions of the feminist cause

Well, I think if someone told me I had terrible taste in footwear, and I was a sensitive little flower then I might well find that insulting and degrading to my self esteem.

I think it being implied that because I identify myself as a feminist, and I post about that belief on MN occasionally, I am some sort of forceful, spiteful, black and white thinking wanker is pretty hurtful and degrading to my self esteem and intelligence actually.

Seems like that's alright round these parts these days though.

On the pubic hair thing, I do, I admit, get exasperated when people completely refuse to believe that it is anything to do with the pornification of society. If they said, as some, but not many do, that they find it sexy thqtnwould be fine. But they talk about hygiene, stuff like that in a fit of post hoc rationalisation, and there's something else women have to worry about being "wrong " and "dirty" and "smelly" about their bodies.

I agree seeker

"Well, many people did explain why they felt that way about views posted on that thread. If you really don't understand after all of that, then I don't think there is any way that I can make you understand, but the fact remains that many posters felt that way about that thread and that may now be colouring their perceptions of the feminist cause"

And the language qnd personal attacks made against me and others doesn't colour your perceptions of the anti-feminist cause?

I can't get my head round the fact that certain posters can not accept that some women are comfortable with somethings that they are not. I couldn't care less if someone called me a girl, I have DH's dinner on the table when he gets in, he mows the lawn, washes the car, services it, I do the ironing and the washing! I accept that doesn't work for some people and some women would rather boil their head than do that, but I am happy to, it works for us.

I still care about politics, that women and men are treated equally in society, respect is a two way street, but I just think something's are too trivial to worry about. That doesn't make me wrong, or thick, or a dimwit or brainwashed, I just have a different opinion. And it isn't the 'anti-feminists' who can't accept that!

I told you my perceptions, I haven't called anyone any names (nice adding the wanker in there to make yourself seem like a victim though)

I just said how I perceive MN feminism in comparison to the feminism you experience on te outside

And let's face it with threads like these it does force te issue

I don't know why you are so personally offended shirty - I've said I'm a feminist myself but I think on MN the cause is often damaged by stuff like this.

All it gets is eyerolls and annoyance and being belittled and dismissed as stupid

Oh and:

"I see it as dismissive of other opinions and uses many tactics available on a forum to do this (ignoring certain posters, demanding evidence when you know for a fact it's there but want it copied and pasted which people can't e arsed to do ESP on a phone) only respond to angry posters and call people frothers and ignore 98% of reasonable posters"

So, basically, what you're saying is that MN feminists cannot win. If they respond to people then they get accused of being too forceful and "shoving their opinions down everyone's neck" (paraphrasing) but if they ignore posters who they disagree with then they're using a "tactic"

Fuck me!

Threads like these? What threads discussing why some posters like to loudly proclaim their non-fem status?

I'm not "personally offended", truly I'm not, I'm having a debate.

It's why I now steer way way clear of the feminism board and any of that kind of discussion, because there are people on here who think that if you do/don't do x, y and z you're an anti-feminist idiot, and it's offputting

This view has been expressed over, and over, and over again at least for the last year, probably longer, by many, many many posters. I'd say the majority easily.

Why does it not sink in ? Isn't anyone listening ?

I'm a man, I have a dd so I watch FWR but I'm often open mouthed at the amount of snipping, squabbling, infighting, bun hurling and one-up-womanship that is a constant fixture.

Seeker a woman said she was more comfortable woken in her overalls completely hair free as it felt better for her and was quizzed if her male colleagues did the same

How would she know?! Do a poll before deciding to shave herself? She was wearing overalls!

Yes social conditioning happens, it doesn't mean that everyone who does it does it because of some societal pressure to do it. Why get up in arms about other woman's hair?!

They've changed the FWR boards now anyway and lots of posters have left. I wonder whether there's any point to the boards nowadays, apart from the fact that someone posting about feminism anywhere else on the site gets told they should be back in their enclave.

Threads like these like the armpit hair thread, there was a thread last week exactly the same as this one. Threads just designed to make women who don't agree fell like they are wrong

And covering it up by 'genuinely not understanding'

And the language qnd personal attacks made against me and others doesn't colour your perceptions of the anti-feminist cause?

Well I cannot speak for others of course, but I am not anti-feminist, I just found the views expressed on that thread offensive and what I thought the other posters were saying too.

Can I just say that sideways fucking is equally valid to PIV sex and we need to rethink our paradigms to subvert patriarchal sexual discourse?

I will finish (before going back to the gentle world of threads-for-a-laugh) that, in the end, we women, all of us, should just try to be nicer and more understanding of each other. It takes so much energy to deal with (ultimately feminist) issues in RL (e.g. trying to get noticed in a male-dominated industry, dealing with managers who stay stuff like "I don't get why there isn't a special club for white males, like there are for women and minorities" my response "there is - it's called "the management"") that we shouldn't waste time and energy fighting amongst ourselves.